Dan Hill: How to Read Facial Expressions for Business Success

Listen to our exclusive interview with Dan Hill:

What if you could get more information beyond what a potential customer was saying to you, to better understand how to navigate the conversation for a sale? Well, expert Dan Hill, talks to us today about reading facial expressions to do just that!!

Dan Hill, Ph.D., is an internationally recognized expert on the role of emotions in politics, business, sports, and popular culture, and has spoken to audiences in over 25 countries. To capture and quantify emotions, Dan pioneered the use of facial coding (the analysis of facial expressions) in market research starting in 1998 and his company, Sensory Logic, Inc., has done work for over half of the world’s top 100 consumer-oriented, B2C companies. Dan has received seven U.S. patents related to facial coding and is also a certified Facial Action Coding System (FACS) practitioner.

Dan’s latest books consist of Famous Faces Decoded: A Guidebook for Reading Others; Two Cheers for Democracy: How Emotions Drive Leadership Style; and First Blush: People’s Intuitive Reactions to Famous Art. His earlier, business books include: About Face: The Secrets of Emotionally Effective Advertising; and Emotionomics: Leveraging Emotions for Business Success, which was chosen by Advertising Age as one of the top ten must-read books of 2009 and features a foreword by Sam Simon, co-creator of The Simpsons.

In 2014, Dan received front-page coverage in The New York Times for his work with professional and NCAA Division 1 sports teams. Other media coverage has ranged from TV appearances on ABC’s “Good Morning America,” Bloomberg TV, CNBC, CNN, C-Span, ESPN, Fox, MSNBC, NBC’s “The Today Show,” PBS, and The Tennis Channel, to print and digital coverage in Allure, China Forbes, Cosmopolitan, Fast Company, The Financial Times, The Los Angeles Times, Politico, Time, USA Today, and The Wall Street Journal. Dan was educated at St. Olaf College, Oxford University, Brown University, and Rutgers University. Along with his wife, Karen Bernthal, he nowadays splits his time between St. Paul, Minnesota and Palm Desert, California.

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Learn more about Dan and his work at > https://emotionswizard.com/

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Transcription of Interview

(Transcribed by Otter.ai, there may be errors)

Adam G. Force 00:11

Hey, what’s going on everybody? Welcome back to the Change Creator podcast show. This is your host, Adam force. If you missed the last episode, it was with Steve Cochran, who is a rock star in the field of leadership. And the episode is about becoming a leader that people want to follow. This is a great episode with a ton of insights. You guys want to swing back and check that out if you haven’t already caught it. And the one before that guys don’t miss it was with Russell Brunson, the founder of clickfunnels. We brought him back on the show for a second interview. And we talked about his new book, Traffic Secrets and how to get tons of traffic to your funnel, right? We all need traffic for our businesses. So great episode, great insights. Don’t miss that one either. Today we’re going to be talking with Dan Hill. Dan Hill is a Specialized expert when it comes to facial recognition, right. So, essentially, he’s pioneered this business use the use of facial deep like coding to capture and quantify these emotional dynamics, such a powerful and interesting skill set, right. So, I mean, he is basically challenged most conventional marketing research completely. He has landed over 50% of the world’s top 100 b2b companies as clients. And he’s going to go through some really cool, just insights that will be helpful for you. And he’s an author of this book. It’s called famous faces decoded. And he goes through all these really cool examples of what what what information you get from the facial expressions of different people. And you can imagine how powerful that is Because so much is said through body language and facial recognition versus just the words that we use. And this is pretty powerful when it comes to marketing and different things like that sales calls and stuff. So very valuable skill set. And we highly recommend checking that out. So stay tuned for that conversation. He’s going to share some of those secrets and tips and all that good stuff. If you guys haven’t been by Change Creator calm in a while, check it out. We have lots of fresh content up there and you can get on the waitlist for the captivate method program. We’ve been having such an amazing time in that program with everybody. There’s a ton of coaching live calls our program that you go through, and it’s all about using storytelling to really supercharge your marketing and apply it to your business right so you can really start building trust but get consistent sales right you are building a sales system. If that sounds like something that you need or looking for right now just go to Change Creator calm and from the homepage, you’ll be able to get on the waitlist and check out the next masterclass that will teach you about what this is all about lots of good insights, and it’ll show you how the captivate method can help you so you can decide if you want to become part of this program or not. Alright guys, we’re going to jump into this conversation with Dan and just see what he has to say about decoding different facial expressions. Okay, show me the heat. Hey, Dan, welcome to the Change Creator podcast show. How you doing today, buddy?

Dan Hill 03:29

I am doing good. Thanks, Adam.

Adam G. Force 03:31

Yeah, thanks for being here. And you have such a unique background always. I think it’s unique and I think it’s kind of special. So I’m excited to dig into it. Because you know, as entrepreneurs here in the social impact world, you know, we really put a lot into the stories that we tell and to demonstrate, you know, things going on with our missions and our business and our products and all that good stuff, and kind of applying what you have from the visual stuff. endpoint, you know, facial expressions and emotions and things like that. I think it’s such a great layer today, especially as we do more and more visual communication and things on the digital front. So if you can just give us a little bit of background about kind of like where you are today. And then just a little background on how you got there. In a nutshell, that would be helpful just so we can ground everybody.

Dan Hill 04:21

Sure. So I run a company called sensory logic. We were the pioneers on bringing facial coding into the business space. But my mission was to frankly humanize business. There’s a wonderful quote that says that our two currencies, dollars and emotions, and I was interested in the intersection of the two. Over the 20 years we’ve managed to do work for more than half the world’s top 100 b2c companies. Yeah, so that’s cool, but I just continued like to push it out and figure out new ways and new applications. So I veered into being a political pundit. I’ve used it in professional sports, as well as business so great things emotions, just apply around Yeah,

Adam G. Force 05:01

that’s interesting. And so I guess what are some of the ways you’ve seen the Can you give us some an example or two, this in action, right? Is there any story you could tell that might demonstrate this kind of like facial recognition? application?

Dan Hill 05:19

Sure, I’ll do a really kind of unusual one from the world of politics. So in 2012, I worked on the Mexican presidential race. They only have one debate. I watched 25 people in a room live, and then I coded additional rooms. All the time I ever did a client presentation at four in the morning, when I got done and ran all the stats, they threw me in a limo that took me to party headquarters. I gave them the presentation, I said, the socialist who, by the way is Obrador, who’s now the president of Mexico. I said, that guy’s gonna search the person you’re concentrating on isn’t gonna go anywhere. I got done. The guy said, you’re wrong, Mr. Hill. In fact, he dead wrong. He said, You don’t know the country. You don’t know the issues. You Don’t even know Spanish. And I said yes. But I know what I saw in the voters face, and they lit up when he was speaking. And that’s the person should go after. In the end, I was off by less than one percentage point on the voting results. ad was dead right? Not dead wrong.

Adam G. Force 06:18

And that was based on reading the audience’s

Dan Hill 06:23

reactions. Yeah, their facial expressions while watching the one and only presidential debate that was held.

Adam G. Force 06:29

So how do we start thinking about this as entrepreneurs who are trying to you know, share stories get people to join us on our mission, right to be part of what we’re doing as a customer and how have you seen this come into play? Obviously, there’s all kinds of facial recognition technology and things happening but I mean, is there a sales calls like we’re like face to face over video right now and any just thoughts on how a young entrepreneur today can start thinking about this and applying or understanding it better?

Dan Hill 07:02

Sure. It’s absolutely vital. And it’s a very useful skill in doing sales. Yeah, I mean, it could be to, you know, venture capitalists that you’re pitching, but ultimately is gonna be day in day out to your customers. And it could be in person, it could be via zoom or Skype or Facebook, live chat. There’s all sorts of possibilities how this could apply. So facial coding essentially is seven core emotions revealed through 23 expressions. So let’s put it in a strictly business context. The emotion you absolutely do not want to see during your presentation and pitch in conversation with a VC or the sales prospect is contempt. contempt is the corner of the mouth. Excuse me, the corner of the mouth lifts up and out in a smirk. They give snidely whiplash the old cartoon character. Yeah, that that is contempt personified. It means I don’t trust you. I don’t respect you. I find you beneath me. This is the most reliable in the case that our marriage will fail. So guess what, it doesn’t work so well, in business either. If trust is the emotion of business contempt as its opposite, so that’s, that’s one emotion. Absolutely. But it’s a fairly rare emotion. Fortunately enough in business as in life. A really common emotion, on the other hand is anger. Now, it could be that you’re trying to sell them too hard. You’re trying to sell them too fast. If it’s too fast, you might confuse them actually, if you get a vertical wrinkle between the eyebrows, they’re pulling down together. Yeah, that could be concentrating. But then again, it could be like, I feel like I’m drinking through a firehose, and they’re just they’re just not liking it. You could be selling the wrong way. I remember one time I was up in Canada in Toronto, yeah. And I was trying to basically dislodge the incumbent solution so that I could get some of the money I guess, out of their budget. Yeah. And at one point, I saw that his lips pressed together and they press together so hard, there was a bolt below the middle of the lower lip. Which is a pretty intense version of anger. And I thought I went oh my god, that was a misstep. And I tried to you know, I do it come from a different angle, kind of semi apologize without, you know, overtly apologizing. He had it worked. I said to myself, this is over. And it was he did not take the follow up call did not now, I will it was over an hour. So you don’t really want to get there the lives press together a little bit, but without the Bulge. You can probably recover from that, but not the one I saw. Well, those are those are two key emotions, but I can certainly go through others.

Adam G. Force 09:33

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting, because you know, we have people here who are in our audience that are coaches or they have high ticket offers. So sometimes the sales funnel does have that phone call touchpoint. Right. Oh, let’s have a strategy session, we’ll kick off our relationship, we’ll have a call and and then you’re going to try to sell them on the high ticket offer. And I think this stuff comes into play. And even I think even in marker research that we’re Doing right like getting feedback hearing from people, you can start getting a sense, right and a read about, like how they really felt about something. Because I feel like sometimes people don’t want to share honest feedback because they’re like, Oh, I don’t want to I don’t want to be a jerk or I don’t want to like hurt their feelings. So they say things and it’s a guy. They give me the real truth here, you know?

Dan Hill 10:21

Oh, absolutely. There’s a wonderful story. Many years ago in New York Magazine, this guy was paying his rent in Manhattan, going to focus groups raise his hand, saying positive stuff. And finally, one time he offered a negative comment, and he got disinvited to all the future focus groups. But yes, they are way too given to just giving you the happy talk, and the high five and all of that, and it doesn’t correlate to what actually happens eventually. I mean, if you’ve never been lied to in life, Adam, you are either really lucky or you’re not paying attention. And market research as it’s historically done doesn’t really work all that well because of the lip service factor. So it’s a great chance to know whether your customers are on board. And another one that applies here besides the smirking contempt, and the anger is fear, like, that offers a little too weird. You’re advertisings off base, I don’t really buy into that message. People go to fear because they’re not comfortable. You can’t really sell the people who are afraid because they freeze and freeze means are not going to embrace your offer, they’re not going to step forward and make it happen.

Adam G. Force 11:30

So what a great sales person be able to see okay, cuz like you get on a call, and they’re gonna be like, okay, and if they have that fear, they might say, you might be able to see it in their face or the way that they’re like, oh, maybe I don’t know, like doing their their body posture and facial expressions. And they might say, Well, I don’t know, I gotta go talk to my wife or my husband before I do anything or I gotta go. And it’s like, is the great salesperson able to help them kind of overcome that fear in the moment there?

Dan Hill 12:01

Well, you have to try and I, and I think a really great thing is happiness. You just had this big smile, which people can see if not, you know, other than on the audio. But happiness is not a trivial emotion. Because happiness, the studies show means you embrace, you open up your code into consideration. So it can be a joke, something to lighten the mood to keep them with you, for most people love to be entertained. So if you can keep the connection rather than I’ll be back to you because back to you means I’m out of here. I’m out of here more times than not. So. And another thing about happiness is it there are studies to show that a happy person brainstorm superior solutions more quickly. Okay, so keep them in the conversation. Make them come back. Emotions are contagious. If they’re laughing and you’re laughing that’s a much better place to be so don’t give up Don’t get you know, frozen in fear yourself. Yeah, I would say Try have some ready made jokes or personal anecdotes. People also enjoy hearing them, you know, hearing your speaker put themselves down a little bit, you know, a little bit of self depreciation never as bad because they’re so used to the salesperson to say, it’s great. It’s great. It’s great. Yeah, say, well, it’s pretty great. Here’s a wrinkle, we’re still working out, could create a lot more trust than just glad handing something.

Adam G. Force 13:23

You know, I’ve noticed that too, because I’m usually pretty honest with people. And I’ll say, you know, certain things like that, and I have noticed that the conversation will get stronger as those types of comments are made, or stories are told about relatable failures, right? So they feel like oh, like, it’s not just me, like you’ve been there too. Right? And that tends to kind of create a bond of trust, like you mentioned, that’s a little bit stronger. So I’ve definitely noticed that,

Dan Hill 13:53

ya know, you want commonalities. They’re really going to a segment go talk to my wife about it. I might want to say, Well, why don’t you meet each other Just anything to keep them talking and then maybe you’re gonna have some little tidbit that comes out that you can relate to and create a story. And now people have connected over the stories. I mean, they’re not dumb in Hollywood, how do you pitch something they say, but what’s the story?

Adam G. Force 14:14

Man? That’s Yeah,

Dan Hill 14:15

and and stories work, and they bond and we have a narrative and we have narrative suspense. We want to know how it turns out. So stories are a good place to go off when I pitched I shouldn’t have started my company and I didn’t have the track record and the clients and all those sweet things. I just told them the mission of why I was doing this, where I came to how I discovered it, what were the aha moments? Again, they could sense my excitement. It gave me you know, some veracity that I was, you know, daring to make that step out into this new world. Yeah,

Adam G. Force 14:45

yeah. That makes a big difference. I mean, I’ve seen people like Maggie join, she runs this company called blink now and she was telling me her story over an interview like this and she helps all these children in Uganda. I think it was Uganda and Maybe it was Nepal. I can’t remember now it’s been a while. But long story short, she, you know, when visited, she wanted to help these kids out there she was still in high school all she had was like babysitting money and a couple bucks. And so she wanted to help this one girl get placed in a home and like all this stuff, so she needed about $5,000 or something. Anyway, she spoke to a woman who was like, man, I don’t know if you’re gonna be able to pull off what you’re saying. But I really like love what you’re saying in the passion and your eyes and that like, but she’s like, I’m gonna, whatever money you put into this business, I will match that and she got her first round of funding that way. So if she had 5000 this person put 5000 and now she’s a mom to like, 50 children out there. She’s building schools. She’s putting them in homes like it’s just blown up. But it started with her just saying I don’t have anything. I have this passion. I have a vision. Here’s why. Here’s what it is. And the story is what got her that first step of funding.

Dan Hill 16:00

Sure, well, passion cells that your emotions you express on your face reveals that you care that you’re involved. There’s a wonderful line from the poet, William Blake who said, still waters breed pestilence. People, people want to see something happening moving going on. Yeah, we don’t like to talk to a brick wall. So another application, quite honestly, a facial coding is also your employees, your first hires, if you’re an entrepreneur, your partner, that’s vital because you don’t have the spare access of a big corporation where half the workforce is disengaged, right? You know, they might be able to keep going. Every hire matters. You really want an esprit de corps, you need to talk to them, you need to figure out who they are you want to hire, right? So all of these emotions matter. So let’s go to another one. sadness. Yeah, sadness has a sense of disappointment, or a sense of loneliness or feeling for Lorne or it’s hopeless. So you don’t want your staff feeling hopeless. You got to get them to a different space. They may not tell you, they’re just engaged, they may not tell you that they doubt this is gonna work. But if you see the corners of their mouth go down, you know, kind of like a rodeo clown was taped. That’s a good sign. Even more reliable is with the cheeks kind of pull up and out. It’s a wince. They give Charlie Chaplin and all the old silent movies when he’s the tramp. Yeah, that Charlie Chaplin, wincing smile, it’s much more sadness that it is a smile. If you see either one of those two from somebody, or the inner eyebrows, in this case, pull up and up, together and upward. That is also a sign of sadness. So that’s not what you want. So now in your customer, but you really don’t want an employee because sadness tends to slow us down. And as an entrepreneur, what do you need? Faster, faster?

Adam G. Force 17:48

Yeah. So I mean, it sounds like these are emotions that we’re all aware of, and it becomes important in these conversations, especially with high ticket sales and things To start consciously paying attention to facial expressions that will express those emotions without them saying it right. So you’re giving cues like the eyebrows, the cheeks. And so these are all the things to be aware of like, if you’re not aware of them, then you won’t be able to read people.

Dan Hill 18:19

Yeah, now there’s, ya know, there’s there’s a key study at UCLA. Yeah, we’re looking at what it calls ambiguous moments, including sales pitches. And what they find in those situations that only about 8% of the true communication comes from the words 55% comes from the face and 38% from the voice. So you’re spending all your time picking out your talking points, and your verbal rebuttals. And what you should really be doing is worrying about the feeling points, because the feeling points are much more likely to loot lead to the sale or the lack of a sale. I think of them as the speed bumps. So you pick up the signal. This is the emotion, what does it mean? What are the likely triggers and then how am I going to pivot Do you deal with it either directly or indirectly as the case may be?

Adam G. Force 19:04

Hmm, that’s interesting. And and you know, and that’s beautiful thing, because if you can read the cues, but then you also understand you have certain sales like stories, things to help people, like it’s not to manipulate and get a sale it is to help demonstrate the points that you have. So people can be clear, right? It’s like effective communication. So you read them, pick up the cues, and then you can share the appropriate information that will help them overcome a fear, overcome an objection, whatever it might be, right?

Dan Hill 19:34

Yeah, as an entrepreneur, I mean, I’ve been one so you have to be adept. You have to be flexible and adjust in the moment. The face is the only place in the body where the muscles attach right to the skin. Yeah, it is quick, real time data, which is really cool. It’s that instantaneous feedback way beyond what everyone’s gonna be prepared to tell you because they’re being polite or they don’t care and so forth. Think back to Jackie Robbins. Somebody came in with the Dodgers. Yeah. I mean, they knew given the situation and the racism and all that, that he had to be super prepared. So they took them through scenario after scenario scenario. So when I started my company exactly what you’re suggesting, what are my rebuttals? What is the story? I’m going to bring in the example I’m going to bring in the joke I’m going to us, you know, you have to be, you know, fly in the moment, but it doesn’t hurt to have some preparation going into it.

Adam G. Force 20:25

Yeah, absolutely. That’s pretty interesting. I love these connections. It’s like just another layer of knowledge that you can use to better understand the person that you’re talking to. I mean, it seems like a more authentic base of knowledge than the words coming out of their mouth,

Dan Hill 20:43

saying, Oh, absolutely. And people aren’t always very articulate, or they fall silent and just let you kind of walk the plank, you know, they’re not going to invest. I remember one time I was pitching for a project for Toyota. And I do who is the key person in their corner of the room? Yeah. He started he started not paying attention. So I just left my schpeel go and I was kind of doing it but racking my brain I came up with something that I thought we hid his attention. I don’t remember what it was. But instantly he stopped looking at his iPad and back to me he came and I got the sale I got the project. Yeah, I love that.

Adam G. Force 21:18

This is good. I like this. So what are now what are what are the cues that you look for when you know maybe someone is starting to be a believer and they’re like excited about what you’re doing? But you know, like so what are the positive cues?

Dan Hill 21:36

Sure, well, the first one is surprised because surprise is also not a trivial emotion. Your eyes go wider. Your eyebrows lift your it’s literally allow you to expand your field of vision. It’s amazing how simple and basic you know, organic, a lot of these signals are surprises great because what do you need people’s attention. So they are metaphorically seeing more taking in more. Now you’ve really got them and you have a chance to, you know, loop them in. What you want to follow with the course is happiness because surprise is almost like a pre emotion. I can get a new car for Christmas, or I can have a new car accident, you know which one is going to be? Well, I’d like to sell on the first one. So that means that you want to get some smile to go along either simultaneously or immediately after that bout of surprise. Now there are different levels of happiness quite honestly, in my business, I report on four of them. A true smile is when the twinkle in the eye happens the muscle around the eye tightens, and that’s a true smile. You can take that one to the bank, a really weak smile that’s unilateral. It’s kind of like that’s the worst joke I’ve ever heard. At least you tried to humor me. So you kind of like you got a toehold you you’ve landed at Norma de but you’re still on the beach. The Germans are still shooting. You are not likely to go to the bank. When I call it accepted smile, you need to move it up to the higher level.

Adam G. Force 23:04

Yeah, yeah. I love that. So I mean, now I know you’ve written several books. And are they I did not get a chance to look up all the different books you have. But what’s the most recent? And are they going deeper on these topics?

Dan Hill 23:19

Yeah, the most important book for this purpose would be called famous faces to coded a guidebook for reading others. What I did is I offered up the secret sauce. I told you what the 23 expressions are. I told you what kind of triggers happen, how you can address them. So I gave all of this but I also gave it in the context of celebrities because we we know their stories, and it’s fun to look at their photographs. Sometimes you think you know these people, they’re rock stars or movie stars, media moguls, CEOs, politicians. You think you know them and in many cases you don’t. Part of the book is I gave people a chance I said, What do you think is the seat signature emotion of this elaborate. And they were right 35% of the time, what do you show

Adam G. Force 24:03

you show pictures?

Dan Hill 24:05

I show pictures to people. I said, What do you think is going on? And then I, you know, figured out it from my analysis, what was really the true signature emotion of people. As George Orwell said, By the age of 50, a man has the face he deserves. We do have muscle memory, we do have ADD patterns, and they give away how we react. Before I could get there, Microsoft actually submitted a patent based on the fact that emotions are contagious. And if you can show someone back an emotion that they relate to that they show a lot, they’ll buy in the relate to it really easily. So frankly, one of the great things you can do in a business meeting is get them to talk about the problem they have. Yeah, and then you can empathize with their problem. And their problem is going to invoke negative emotions. So you can talk about how you were frustrated about something that didn’t work, or how you sold a bill of goods on something at some point in your life. Now you’re on the same side of the fence. You Both had our problems, but now you’re gonna bring them over to your side of the fence. And yeah,

Adam G. Force 25:03

here’s the opportunity now so I relate to the pain I know what you’re going through. When you feel this way, I know that these things happen, right, these symptoms of that challenge, and then you can share the opportunity to to alleviate that pain. Right? Yeah,

Dan Hill 25:17

take them from pain to game. But I I think that book is the key one if they want a background on the role of emotions in business, I wrote something called emotion omics, which actually features a foreword by Sam Simon, the CO creator of The Simpsons. There are a lot of business books with a foreword by somebody who helped create the Simpsons, because I was taking a more humane or more emotional and frankly, I wasn’t, you know, averse to putting in a few jokes in the book as well. Sure.

Adam G. Force 25:46

Yeah. I love that. Now, tell me what was that first book that you mentioned that you had all the examples and stuff?

Dan Hill 25:53

Sure, fake. Famous faces decoded. A guidebook for reading others 173 celebrities in the course of the book.

Adam G. Force 26:02

There you go, guys. So as you’re listening here, you could check that out I think Dan’s book on that it’s gonna be super fun, but also powerful. So combining that with our storytelling strategies for marketing and understanding how to read people, this is going to give you cues to use the stories and help people get clear. So you can really address people appropriately based on their, their authentic feelings, and not what they tell you.

Dan Hill 26:29

Exactly.

Adam G. Force 26:30

I love it, Dan, appreciate it. I want to give a shout out to like how do people learn more about what you’re doing? Where do they go and all that good stuff.

Dan Hill 26:40

Probably the easiest thing is is the old website, the three W’s and then Dan Hill dot sensory logic.com. Sensory as in your five senses as in, you should lift your visual IQ and pay more attention to the townspeople. People are giving away

Adam G. Force 26:58

Yeah, love it. Awesome, this is really valuable information. And I appreciate you sharing it. It’s it’s kind of like it’s actually sparked a whole fresh perspective for me. Like you, you don’t necessarily consciously think about these things on calls and, you know, we get into these different scenarios with prospects, right clients who, and you just, you know, you’re thinking about how to talk to them. But these cues they think can just give such a, an additional layer of clarity to help you be to say the right things, you know,

Dan Hill 27:33

Oh, absolutely. I remember when I was in corporate life, we had someone come in and pitch us. They spent the first 25 minutes non stop telling us about their offer and how great they were. They never asked us what our problems were. They didn’t even remember to ask us why we hit invited them. In my case, they completely lost sight of that they made no personal connection whatsoever. I mean, there are so many meetings where honestly, it’s probably over on based on the first five minutes, which has nothing to do with the formal pitch, it’s all about making a connection and related to the person. Yeah, you know, Where are they from? Where did they grow up? Just you’re trying to find some avenue to commonality

Adam G. Force 28:12

love that. It’s so smart. You gotta you gotta walk before you run and build the rapport right?

Dan Hill 28:18

Yeah, I mean, we bought Yeah, we buy from someone we like we do not tend to buy from people we dislike. Other there are other options and very rarely does someone have a entirely or truly differentiated offer. You need the combination of a good offer that you’re going to stand behind that they believe in you. Yeah. And and that you get who they are and what their problem is. You got to learn to squat. You got to personalize it.

Adam G. Force 28:41

Yeah. My co founder, Amy and I call it like, we are on the same page. Dare we say it’s the know like trust factor. You guys, it’s the What’s his name? Geez, I can’t remember he’s one of the merchandising, the heads of merchandising over at Costco, Mike perot, I think his name is and he was In a book, and he was telling people like, when he gets all these companies, let’s say it’s laundry detergent, there’s 100 companies with laundry detergent, I want to distribute it through Costco, he can’t do them all, he has to make a decision. And he goes, it’s not I don’t make a decision based on price or like, you know, certain features or whatever. It’s who I know, like and trust the most. And so that’s who he goes with, right? And so these things that you’re talking about, it’s so important for these sales situations. And that’s where storytelling comes in. And now our facial cues.

Dan Hill 29:30

Yeah, no and but believe the story and that was what’s going to hook us in the facts. Everyone knows you can manipulate the facts and work the statistic and put it out there. And then that’s not personal. Yeah, I mean, you’re not going to trust a fact nearly as much as you’re going to trust the story. And the storyteller.

Adam G. Force 29:49

I love it. I think that’s a good one for us to wrap up on Dan. I appreciate your time today. You guys got the website. We’ll have it in the show notes and all that good stuff and you can check out Books, especially the one famous facing faces decoded, right?

Dan Hill 30:05

famous faces decoded. Yes, indeed.

Adam G. Force 30:07

Yes. Perfect. All right, Dan, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it.

Dan Hill 30:11

I had a good time. Thank you, Adam.

Adam G. Force 30:13

That’s all for this episode. Your next step is to join the Change Creator revolution by downloading our interactive digital magazine app for premium content, exclusive interviews, and more ways to stay on top of your game available now on iTunes and Google Play or visit Change Creator mag Comm. We’ll see you next time where money and meaning intersect right here at the Change Creator podcast.

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