Bob Berry: Mastering User Experience to Grow Your Biz

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Are you providing your clients with the best user experience so you can grow your business effectively? Bob Berry is a user experience expert with INCREDIBLE experience who shares key tips you need to know!

Bob Berry is a principal at AnswerLab, where he’s guiding Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, and many others to create new, optimal online experiences in this age of coronavirus. He’s also the founder of The Human-Computer MasterMind Academy.

Learn more about Bob and his work at > www.itstheusers.com

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Transcription of Interview

(Transcribed by Otter.ai, there may be errors)

Adam G. Force 00:10

Hey, what’s going on everybody? Welcome back to the Change Creator podcast show. This is your host, Adam force. If you missed the last episode, Amy and I talked about marketing misconceptions and things that you need to know for today’s marketing climate, very important stuff that will be very helpful for you. So if you missed it, go back, check that out. Definitely recommend it, you can get some good gold nuggets out of there. Today, we’re going to be talking with Bob Berry, and he has incredible experience. So he is a virtual operations and user experience expert. I mean, serious user experience. I mean, just as things change, like the pandemic, like it shifts the dynamics of businesses, it shifts the dynamics of people’s behaviors in the marketplace. And so, Bob has worked with companies like you know, Facebook, Google, Apple, Amazon, and he helps drive great experiences that push their businesses forward, especially during these crazy times where everything is changing right before our eyes. So we’re going to talk with Bob about how to think about user experience for our business. What does it mean to our marketing and getting more results, getting more sales, all those types of things, and he goes deep on it. So this is an area that we can really tap into with Bob. So it’s gonna be a fun conversation. So hang tight, we’re gonna jump into that in just a minute. You know, we’ve been hearing a lot of people kind of share their thoughts about marketing and, you know, they get so frustrated about the you know, getting in someone’s funnel and they know they’re trying to be sold to. And there is a lot going on around the internet today, right with social media and stuff and there’s the good, there’s good stuff and then there’s bad stuff. If it’s not jiving with you and you feel like you’re being sold to, you know, you may not feel good, but there are people out there that are authentically and genuinely trying to be helpful. They’re trying to do the right thing because they know That what they know can help you get to the next part of your life to advance the next step, right? And we’re all trying to live a better life, we’re all trying to do something that’s more in line with who we are as a person truly and deeply, right. We get so disconnected from who we are, to who we learn to be right, the jobs, getting married, having kids all great things, but all of a sudden, everything is you know, dictated by these thought processes. And, you know, we, we have this yearning to be to get back in touch with just raw living like with the depth of who we truly are, and who we want to be. When we wake up every day. You know, we have to put food on the table, we got to make money. But if we can do those things, of course, based on something that we truly love, and and is meaningful to us and other people, you know, the happier we become, we get like more synergistic with who we are on the inside, right. And that’s why we love receiving the results. We’ve been getting We have people who are finding these aha moments and living their their true identities, with their businesses through our program, the captivate method. And I’m not trying to just sit here and pitch the Castlebay method, but it is honestly why we made this program because we’ve seen these types of challenges so much, right? So, you know, we, we’ve been seeing, and having such a joy watching people find and connect with themselves again, and run businesses that now are making a living in connection with who they truly are. I mean, that’s what it’s all about. So when you can do that, and you can wake up every day. It’s exciting. You know, it’s transformational. So if you’re, if this sounds like something this is and the way we do this is really tapping into this concept of storytelling. So when you think of storytelling, you might have some misconceptions, right? But it really is about your identity, but then also how we use that information to, to communicate effectively with people about who we are and what we’re Trying to help them with right this is the only way we get people on board with these ideas it’s the only way progress has been made all throughout history right so anyway guys, you can stop by Change Creator comm we have tons of fresh content on there. And you can also find you’ll see on the homepage to join captivate, you can get on the waitlist, we’re gonna send you some information, you get a chance to learn more about it and an opportunity to enroll if it’s the right fit for you. So stop by Change Creator calm and check it out. And guys, you know what, we’re going to jump into this conversation with Bob berry right now. And let’s do this.

04:35

Okay, show me the heat.

Adam G. Force 04:40

Hey, Bob, welcome to the Change Creator podcast show how you doing today?

Bob Berry 04:43

I’m doing very well, Adam. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to talking about what’s happening in the world right now.

Adam G. Force 04:49

Yeah, lots going on in the world. And as I mentioned to you before this, I’m a UX fan and bit of a nerd. So I can’t wait to dig into all your incredible insights. But just so everybody here who’s listening knows what you’re all about. Tell us a little bit what’s going on in your world today. And you know some of your background of just how you got there.

Bob Berry 05:10

So I’ve been doing user experience and related research and development for decades now, actually started years ago with Hewlett Packard back when Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard were still around. And out of school, I had a degree in computer science. So I’ve been geeking out on this stuff for a long time. And back in the HP days, in the early days of the web, I was one of their early business managers, and we were inventing social media elearning cloud based services and related Types Of Online experiences before a lot of those terms even existed. So that’s how I got my start. At the moment. I’m working on a couple of major gigs. I’m a principal researcher with answer lab, which is one of the premier user experience companies in the US and we’re working with major brands like Google, Amazon, FedEx, Facebook to help them make this transition. In the midst of this, you know, giant move to, you know, digital centric world that we’re now facing with the Coronavirus also have another gig that helps young entrepreneurs and ventures and startups get involved in this whole world of user experience. And that’s called Instant users calm. So yeah, pretty deeply involved in this have been passionate about it for a long time.

Adam G. Force 06:28

So that I mean, and yet your hands and a lot of different things there. And you’re obviously working with some pretty incredible brands, which says a lot as well. So just let’s just level set because I think there’s probably a lot of people that don’t have a clear understanding about the depth of what user experience really is. So maybe you can just give a rundown on when you say you’re working with these guys or supporting entrepreneurs or anything just in UI UX, what what does that mean to you?

Bob Berry 06:56

So a couple a couple of major points and this is very topical as it has a lot to do with what’s happening in the world right now. So when we talk about user experience, it’s really a much broader context than just what you might normally think of as a person interacting with some interface on a website or an app or piece of software. We really look much broader at whether it’s a business or an individual b2b or b2c. What is the whole context of a person’s life? what’s the what’s the day in the life look like? What journey are they on? What’s the narrative of the kind of problems that they’re trying to solve or what keeps them awake at night or what their business goals aren’t, who their customers are? And so we start with that and then we take all of the interactive stuff that our clients do, and put that in the context of that life and how people might interact with it and how they might solve problems. So today, the particular unique situation that people find themselves in is with the Coronavirus. Digital is becoming far more empty And then it has been in the past, not that it wasn’t before. So online systems virtual is providing a solution to so many of the problems we’re facing. Now, you know, all schools and education is going online. You know, a lot of healthcare is now done virtually digitally. So many companies are adapting to being able to offer customers new e commerce systems, we’ve got new startups that are developing ways to do testing and tracing and tracking for the virus itself. I’m not gonna just go on we can have a podcast just talking about the new innovations, and the new kinds of virtual systems that are out there. And all of those are all about new experiences, and how are we going to interact with one another? How are we going to maintain what we do or even get better at what we do, and be able to do that remotely and contact lists so we don’t spread this virus?

Adam G. Force 08:51

Yeah, that’s interesting. And, you know, I like the perspective of looking at the day in the life and then finding out how we how Our opportunity, right as a company fits into that, that day in the life. So the question that I would have is, what are some of the ways that you guys get accurate insights about the day in the life?

Bob Berry 09:15

So there’s all there are a lot of tools that we that we use one of them, for example, as we use diary tools. And there are some platforms out there that specifically provide automated ways to do this. And so we will, we will, for example, if somebody is testing an app or somebody has a new business service that they’re launching, we’ll provide them access to that. And we’ll have them maintain a diary over a period of time to find out what events in their lives have them, Go pick up that app or have them go to that website. What problems are they trying to solve? How easily can they get the answers that they need or get the tasks completed that they need to within the context of their business or their personal lives? A lot of times, then from those diaries, we then follow up with some in depth interviews to really kind of really unpack a lot of the specific things that they did offer them a variety of different scenarios. And you know, a lot of that is more qualitative to really understand how people are doing what they’re doing. But you can also rap a lot of quantitative tools around those as well. So those individual stories in those narratives, and that kind of Day in the Life is really critical. But at some point, you also want to understand how that works at scale. So there are variety of quantitative tools we can use to survey people and measure them in larger volumes, to really understand the kind of the larger trends and how significant are these tasks and these these needs that people have so you can understand how to better design, you know, the app or website or software or whatever you’re working on. That’s interesting.

Adam G. Force 10:48

So I want to scale down the perspective a bit and maybe maybe to start that part of the conversation, the difference in your mind and how you We might approach user experience for the, you know, first five years of a startup, right? I have an informational program or service or e commerce versus the Googles and fedexes of the world where they have a very different dynamic on the size of their their data budgets and marketing, capability, research capabilities. So just what like where do you see the difference in approaches there and then I want to dial into the the early stage entrepreneur.

Bob Berry 11:29

So the the important lesson here, the important insight here is that having that kind of interaction with your end users and your customers, is you can do all of that independent of budget, obviously, those big brands, they spend literally millions of dollars and for most entrepreneurs, that’s just out of the question. Yeah. So I’ve run you know, both as an entrepreneur and working in a corporate environment. You know, I’ve run usability labs and user experience projects with virtually no Budget at all. So it doesn’t cost you anything to develop a process to identify who your customers are, and find ways to put them in the midst of whatever experience you’re providing them, and observe how well they can complete what they need to add to make sure whatever they’re completing is also consistent with your business tasks. So you know, simply going to your customer list, and making phone calls or simply inviting people like here, you know, we’re using Skype, there’s so many tools out there. And again, you can do all this remotely. And we’ve done this remotely for years. And when everything began to go totally remote in March, we were really set up to do this. But, you know, if you’re an entrepreneur, you can use Skype or zoom or WebEx or just the phone, to walk people through whatever it is you’re doing, and to experience their experience as they’re going through it and develop a real appreciation for what their needs are and whether or not they can be successful with whatever you’re providing. So independent of budget, yeah, you have that kind of conversation, you can run those kind of tests, you can develop that level of intimacy without having to spend hardly any money at all, in some cases, none at all. Okay,

Adam G. Force 13:17

so Okay, so a couple things come to mind to kind of dig into that a little bit. The first thing is, you know, there I almost see two things happening here. You if you’re going to do a usability test of any kind for UX on your, your program, let’s say you have a membership site, or course you want to see are people confused? Are they not like, whatever that is, right? So you want to make sure that you have the right person doing that test, right. So it starts with knowing who your perfect customer really is to make sure that’s who you have. Because, you know, obviously you don’t need mom and dad doing the usability tests. Right. So that’s right. And and is that that stems from understanding That day in the life and how you fit in, right, because if it doesn’t, then obviously, it’s just not the right person. Right?

Bob Berry 14:05

Yes. Yeah, very good point. So having the right people involved in that investigation in that research is really critical. And, and there’s a lot of things you can verify. So it really again, it goes really beyond usability. If you’re a startup, you might need to validate your basic premise your you know, what’s your value proposition? What is the core message that you’re trying to send to the marketplace? What outcomes are you trying to create for people? And is that useful to them? Is that something that they actually need? And then are your marketing messages the way that you’re trying to approach them and attract them? is that relevant as well? So yes, finding those right people to make sure that you’re asking those upfront questions about your business model and your messaging as well as the actual experience itself. Yes, if you got the right people involved is going to be really critical and in most cases, offering something at no cost. cost to people and giving them an opportunity. Like, if you’re developing an online course, in most cases, if you’re addressing a market of any size at all, it’s pretty straightforward to find people that need that learning that need that outcome. And you can get them involved in whatever it is you’re doing at no cost and give it to them for free. And in exchange, they can provide you that feedback and give you the opportunity to interview them give you the opportunity to observe how they use it, and what outcomes they get out of it.

Adam G. Force 15:29

Right. So the cost to them is just a return of their feedback and interview and information like that. Maybe even a testimonial at the end if it all goes well. Right?

Bob Berry 15:38

Absolutely. Yes. And then it goes again, as we know, in those early stages, those kind of testimonials can be really critical.

Adam G. Force 15:45

I mean, I think it’s an important part of that marketing process. Right? I mean, if you’re creating a course or something like that, you know what we did was even at $200 we validated will people pay for this like is it Are they interested enough to pay for this Then we got the user experience information because Bob the way we did it, and I’d be curious to hear your feedback just for people listening is we taught this live actually. So we could see reactions, are they confused and things like that. And then that might be a first layer. But then to your point, you’re really getting dialed into the usability, like, on the platform itself, right?

Bob Berry 16:23

Yeah, I think that, that having those early experiences where you’re gonna be there with them and walk them through it, it’s what we call the experience experience. Yeah, so you’re gonna experience whatever they’re experiencing as they’re experiencing, and then that’s really critical. But at some point, they’re gonna have to go off and do it on their own, you’re not going to be able to be there with them and walk them through it. So you’ve got to find a way to do both of those. You got to make sure that you can be there with them and see how they’re doing it. And they might provide some guidance and there’s a lot of interviewing and questioning you can do. But at some point, you also need to give them the opportunity to use the product ultimately, as it’s designed to be used which, you know, I think in most people Especially for online courses and learning materials, that’s going to be self guided. And that’s going to be a pretty critical part of whether or not they’re successful or not.

Adam G. Force 17:09

Yeah, that makes sense. And don’t you have some programs online now that you’ve been working on, I’d be curious how you take in these types of steps for your own the work that you’ve been doing?

Bob Berry 17:20

Yeah, so we offer a pretty extensive set of learning tools, platforms, resources, measurement tools. And in fact, we’ve created a landing page for your podcasts and you can actually go there and we can talk about this at the end, and download a lot of learning materials for free to really get started on this. And there also is a lot of information there on some more advanced topics. And, and we touch on a lot of different ones. I mean, we don’t really have time to go through all the different elements. But there are a number of different approaches that we include in that they’re kind of on the leading edge of what user experience research is doing today. just name a couple of examples. So for example, one of the things that we’re finding, and you may have experienced this too, and some of the work you’ve done with your own programs, is there are so many different apps, platforms, devices, operating systems out there right now that being able to just verify that what you’re doing works functionally. So what you’re doing might actually be usable, it actually might be useful, it might be relevant, it might be something that people need, but it also might not be functionally sound. And you’d be surprised how often we we hear about and we discover functional problems, the thing just breaks. Yeah, certain types of phones or on certain types of operating systems. And so being able to run some of those tests just to make sure that everything is sound from a quality perspective is also critical to making sure it’s usable and useful and all those other things.

Adam G. Force 18:57

Yeah, we tend to find that out. Sometimes the hard way as people were just going through, and you get those messages saying, Hey, what’s going on with this? And I go, thanks for the feedback.

Bob Berry 19:10

Yeah, right. Yeah,

Adam G. Force 19:12

you know, because here’s the thing, part of it is like, you don’t want to get stuck in a cycle of like perfectionism that holds you back from actually putting something out there, right? So it’s like, people get so afraid that it may not be functionally sound. And we’re like, well, you’re better off just getting it out there getting the feedback, and as long as you know, like, so that would be an approach that we take. I see it so often with entrepreneurs, a limiting belief that Well, I didn’t put this course together or I didn’t create this program at or release it for the past year because I just couldn’t do it the way I wanted yet. It’s not set up the way it needs to be. It’s not perfect. You know what I mean?

Bob Berry 19:49

Yeah, I actually I’m glad you I’m glad you mentioned that Adam, because one another really key practice or method here is what we consider progressive or iterative testing. Okay, so get something out there early. There’s no better test of a product concept and product functionality than getting it in the hands of real customers and real users. Yeah. And it doesn’t have to be perfect. But you won’t know you won’t discover a lot of things on your own, that the market will reveal that your customers will reveal. So get it out there, try it out, get it tested, and then iterate and then do it again. And again. And again. You know, you look at a company like Amazon, for example. And when you think about e commerce and you think about online purchasing you obviously they’re the thing that they’re the company that comes to mind first. Yeah, well, they’ve been doing testing for from the very beginning, and they do it constantly, and they’re always improving. And a lot of times, and you may have had this experience, sometimes when they put new stuff out there, it’s not perfect, of course, but they constantly test to constantly evaluate and that, you know, that method by, arguably the biggest company in the world is also very relevant for the smallest company. In the world as well, get it out there, test it, verify it, find out what works and not tweak it, do it again, put it back out there, tweak it, do it again. And that’s just a constant process that you need to be committed to.

Adam G. Force 21:12

Yeah, no, I couldn’t agree more. It’s so powerful. So we basically covered off saying, we want to experience the experience with them and learn from that, then you want to watch them, experience it on their own and learn from that. And you want to make sure that you’re getting something into the hands of the market, and go through a process of progressive testing, which is that iterative process.

Bob Berry 21:35

Yeah. And then again, prior to all of that, make sure you understand the day in the life, their narrative, their context of who they are and what problems they’re solving.

Adam G. Force 21:44

So tell me this, Bob, do you have something that you use almost like a framework or a story script, which is for that day in the life where you could say, here’s this Avatar and we have a one page story about this person? That’s the day in the life like, how do you? How do you get that on paper. But when you know, when you’re setting this stuff up,

Bob Berry 22:07

you have to start with some basic assumptions. So you need to come up with some kind of an interview script that you can use to talk to people. So if you’re launching a product, or if you’re developing a new service or building a new online course, I think the assumption is that you already have a pretty good idea what problem that you’re trying to solve. And so you make some you have to make some basic assumptions about what those are based on your knowledge. And based on the market insights that you have that went into the development of that product, and then idea, building from that the interview process is essentially validating what some of those assumptions are. That’s probably step one. Yep. Is is getting those down, really identifying. What does success look like for the end user? What problem is that they’re trying to solve? And how does how do those success factors line up with what your own business skulls are in there. You know, there needs to be some overlap, obviously in those. Yeah, that makes sense. Another another practice that we’re really encouraging people to do right now, because of everything that’s happening with the economy and Coronavirus is, identify what those success factors are for your customers and your end user. And for yourself, get those assumptions down, and then start to project those into the future where based on the what’s happening with the economy with the virus in your particular market segment, or your customers, what’s the vector for those? Are they diverging? Are they converging, and that gives you even if you can only look at three or six months out to try to get a sense of where things are going. Because the world is changing very quickly right now. And it’s important to keep track of what your customers are going through how markets are changing how technology is changing, because it’s going to be it might be a very different world. If you’re looking on a launch world might be very different three or six months in the assumptions that you started with.

Adam G. Force 24:00

Hundred percent. Yeah, that makes sense. And that’s always a critical step. And it sounds like to me and just from my experience speaking here, you start off with this hypothesis, right, these assumptions, and then it takes time to interview and talk to protect like your customers and get the information. So this is an evolving process, right? You’re always refining that perfect customer and that Avatar and that day in the life, do you Is that true?

Bob Berry 24:28

Yes, that’s definitely true. And I think it’s probably more true now than ever, because of the rate of change going on out there today. So that’s true enough, you know, in the old normal, and we don’t even know what the new normal is. Yes, yeah. part of the process now is staying close to those customers. And again, times like a crisis are oftentimes of opportunity as well. There are some amazing stories of new innovations and adaptations that people are working on today that are going to require new kinds of experiences and for for entrepreneurs and startups, it’s a way to identify what are some of the emerging needs and take advantage of this.

Adam G. Force 25:06

Yeah, makes sense. And I’m curious one, one thing that can be challenging for people is actually getting people on the phone to do these interviews. So that’s part of why it could take time. Does it erode the value of the feedback? If you say, Hey, I’ll give you 50 bucks or 100 bucks for an hour of your time to do this? Is it okay to invest in that process?

Bob Berry 25:28

No, we do that all the time. And it can vary. And sometimes it might be an you know, an Amazon or a Visa gift card. Or again, it might be you know, access if you’ve got a product that you can provide in kind, or it might be you know, might just be cash. And in fact, a lot of the research that we do we simply pay cash. Yeah. And so No, I think it’s a it’s a practice that, that that, you know, the research industry, not just user research, but all types of market research. compensating people for their time and their input. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it’s doesn’t alter the results. And really, people commit when they know they’re getting paid, they pay more attention, they’re more likely to show up and they’re more likely to be on their feet.

Adam G. Force 26:09

Yeah, hundred percent. I mean, we’ve learned this too, because we would reach out to like 50 people just say we love feedback. You watched our, you know, our webinar, you didn’t join the program, trying to get feedback, and nobody wants to talk. And I was like, Alright, I don’t care. Pay him 100 bucks or $100 less This is you’re basically buying data. So to me, it’s worth every penny. Right? That feedback is like the crux of your business success.

Bob Berry 26:34

Yeah, well, and the other thing we’ve observed too, is that if you if you don’t compensate people in some way, then what you what you can end up with are those people that like to give feedback.

Adam G. Force 26:46

Ah, that’s a great point. It’s like you get the discount shoppers the freebie hunters and now you got the feedback givers.

Bob Berry 26:54

Yeah, well, it’s like it’s like online when you people comment on or do reviews on products. Yeah. You know, a lot of times you’re what you’re getting are people that like to give reviews on products, you’re not really getting a representative sample of all the users. So yeah, you have to be careful to not end up with that kind of bias. That’s a critical

Adam G. Force 27:12

question. That’s a great, great point. I never thought about it when it comes to the feedback cycle, that there’s just people out there that always have something to say about it.

Bob Berry 27:23

Well, and unfortunately, sometimes, and a certain percentage of those people are the grouchy ones, too. So that’s exactly

Adam G. Force 27:30

you end up getting these disgruntled people. Yeah, they’re always the first to speak up and say, Well, I’ll tell you what I think. Yeah,

Bob Berry 27:38

right. And not that they’re not that their feedback is invalid. You just want to get a much broader sample than that.

Adam G. Force 27:44

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So tell me a little bit more about your programs and where people can learn more about them. It sounds like you have some day. I mean, you work in the big world of the Googles and the fedexes, and things like that. But you also have stuff for the entrepreneurs out there. And I’m just tell us a little bit more about that.

Bob Berry 28:06

Yeah, so we have this this program, and it’s user calm. And it’s the official name is the human computer mastermind Academy. And what we’ve done is taken a lot of those lessons from what the, you know, the big companies do, and package them in a whole series of online courses, ebooks, tips and tricks and methods, platforms, etc. And so if you for this podcast for your podcast, Adam, people can go to change dot, it’s the users.com and download a lot of those materials for free. And again, it’s a lot of getting started stuff to just you know, what I’d like you’ve asked a lot of questions about what are the first steps people need to do. And then there’s a lot more advanced topics as well if you really want to get into this for the long term and maybe invest a little bit more money and be a little more rigorous about it. All that is in there as well. The other thing I’m offering is We’re trying to really keep a pulse on what’s happening in the world and what entrepreneurs are doing, how they’re adapting and innovating. And so I’m offering a free business consult by me for anybody that signs up for those free materials. And I’ll talk you through some of those early questions based on your own business and your own challenges and what you’re trying to create and what markets you’re trying to reach. And we do this all the time with companies of all sizes, including a lot of those big brands. And so hopefully, we can we want to learn from people that are that are doing this. We want to offer whatever knowledge or assistance we can provide as well. So that’s all part of that, that that offer.

Adam G. Force 29:37

Oh, yeah, I just checked out the site. So anybody listening, just to repeat that URL, it’s changed. It’s the users.com. And we’ll have that in the description and show notes and stuff like that for anybody that wants to grab it. Awesome. So Bob, really appreciate your time today. It was a lot of fun. Talking about user experience. And just as really critical process, I mean, we talked about identifying that day in the life and how that’s an iterative process and some steps to take to do that. And just how to think about it. And and Bob, correct me if I’m wrong, the more detail the better, right?

Bob Berry 30:15

Yeah, the more detail the better. But But, again, you have to have a balance between depth and breadth. So, you know, you want to make sure you have a pretty good coverage on all the different types or segments of customers you’re trying to reach. And that’s going to vary a lot depending on your business or your idea. So don’t go too deep on any one. Make sure you’ve got a good cross section of all you’re trying to reach in, then start to go deeper on each one. I would encourage that kind of balance.

Adam G. Force 30:44

Can you just before we wrap up here, can you give a little example of like, I had someone we’ve been we talked a lot about finding that perfect customer for someone’s business or course or whatever it might be. And really understanding when you talk about day in the life I mean Is it? Do we want to know? Are they married? Are they still working nine to five coming home frustrated or how they deal with their, you know certain things in their life, they have a babysitter for the kids they gotta pay for like, how in depth? Do we need to get that? Can you maybe give an example of maybe a brief, like sample description or something that like, what kind of details are we looking for?

Bob Berry 31:21

So some of the details you’re looking for one of the key questions we try to understand in the day in the life is what? What triggering event makes them reach for whatever your product or service or course happens to be. Yeah, yeah. So what’s what’s going on that, you know, that desire, that motivation for them to pick up or look for or seek you out? is really important. I think a lot of times we start by assuming that somebody has already got the product and so now they’re gonna start using it and doing whatever it is they’re able to do with it. But we have to back up from that and say, What is it that’s going to make somebody go look for you? Google search or, you know, go to a course catalog or ask their friends or go on social media, whatever it might be. What is it? What is that initiating event? And then everything in between is all the user experience usability, everything they’ve been talking about. But then on the other end to, what are they going to do with a result? When they’re done with it, when they take away whatever they’ve learned, whatever outcome they take, how are they going to apply it, how they’re going to remember it and apply it in their lives? So that those two bookends, what’s the initiating event? And then how are they going to apply it in their lives or their business are really critical. And when we get into a lot of this research about our product, we tend to get too involved in the product. And we leave out those two bookends, got it?

Adam G. Force 32:44

No, I love those. That’s great. I mean, just even just thinking about those life events that make someone consider that motivate them. It tells you a lot about the circumstances of their of what they’re dealing with and you could probably over time, find a lot of common ground between people And what’s motivating them?

Bob Berry 33:02

Yes. And then I’ll inform you a lot about, for example, how to promote your product.

Adam G. Force 33:07

Exactly.

Bob Berry 33:07

So, where where are they going to go look for what it is, whatever it is you’re offering. And that’s where you need to be promoting yourself and making people aware of it and describing your benefits and knowing and everything else. And that’s just you. And if you don’t cross that hurdle, you’re not you’re never in contention.

Adam G. Force 33:24

Exactly. That’s a good note to end. I appreciate it. Lots of good insights here. Again, guys, you can check out change. It’s the users.com. Bob, thank you so much for your time today.

Bob Berry 33:36

Adam, it’s been a lot of fun. Stay safe. Good luck with everything you’re doing.

Adam G. Force 33:40

All right. Thank you so much. That’s all for this episode. Your next step is to join the Change Creator revolution by downloading our interactive digital magazine app for premium content, exclusive interviews, and more ways to stay on top of your game available now on iTunes and Google Play, or visit Change Creator mag.com we’ll see you next time. Money and meaning intersect right here at the Change Creator podcast.

(Transcribed by Otter.ai, there may be errors)

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