Rick Wilson: Level Up Your Brand’s Marketing Strategy For Long-Term Wins

Next Level Your Brand's Marketing Strategy For Long Term Wins

Over 50% of businesses, including eCommerce businesses, don’t have a marketing strategy in place.

And while we’re witnessing an ever-increasing number of eCommerce businesses pouring in thousands of dollars in their marketing and advertising efforts each day, not many of them are achieving the best possible results and hitting their KPIs.

Is it the fierce competition?

Or maybe they just don’t have the right systems and processes in place.

Most eCommerce store owners and marketing executives often wonder:

How can I 2x, 3x, or even 5x my company’s marketing success?
How can I run ads in eCommerce and not lose my shirt?

Recently, Adam, the founder of Change Creator and branding veteran, spoke with the author and 20-year business veteran who is the CEO of Miva, Rick Wilson, to get insights on some core ideas that will help businesses upgrade their brand’s marketing strategy for long-term success.

More about Rick Wilson

Rick Wilson, CEO of Miva (an eCommerce software and solution for enterprise merchants) has seen first-hand the evolution of the economy, starting in the late ‘90s when businesses went digital, the “mobile revolution” when Amazon became a dragon, and now today’s influencer-driven economy. He is invested in the future of eCommerce and tackles industry topics and trends in his podcast and book to adapt to changing demands.

Throughout The Podcast Episode, Adam & Rick Wilson Discussed:

  • How did Rick get into the eCommerce space? How was his experience back in 1999?
  • eCommerce in 1999 vs Now.
  • Hot eCommerce Trends at a Macro Level
  • What does future hold for both Amazon and independent retail store owner in Rick’s opinion? Is the future bright?
  • The pain points of selling on retail marketplaces like Amazon – how does it restrict third-party sellers from building their own brand?
  • The importance of customer data in the eCommerce space.
  • The importance of branding in the eCommerce space.
  • Why is it important to build a conversion-focused marketing funnel and not just focus on one aspect of marketing?
  • What motivated Rick to kickstart his venture – the backstory.
  • Miva’s USP – what helps it stand out from the competition?
  • Miva’s experience with complex inventory.
  • Why is it important to build a well-thought-out project management plan, irrespective of whether you are using Miva, Shopify, WooCommerce or any other platform?
  • How important it is to hire eCommerce consultants to set the right processes and systems in place?
  • The importance of building customer loyalty and how you can do it in eCommerce space?


More than 24 million eCommerce stores exist on today’s world wide web. And we haven’t yet included the Amazon storefronts or ones from other retail marketplaces

Growing your eCommerce store from scratch is a strategic process. From building the much-required systems and processes to focusing on customer experience and building a rock-solid brand that people can’t resist but fall in love with, it’s important for eCommerce store owners to approach the overall process strategically.

Learn more about Rick & Miva – https://miva.com/

Learn How to Set Your eCommerce Brand Up For Success!

Ecommerce Brands:

We will bring your unique story to life and not only increase your average order size but set you up with a profitable sales system that works for you 24/7 on autopilot in the next 30 days – or we keep working at no cost until you do. Book a Call Here

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Episode Transcript (unedited, will likely have typos):

Adam G. Force  0:00 

How do social entrepreneurs and small businesses create an authentic brand people love so they can get the edge they need to stand out, create Predictable Revenue and compete against the big guys. That’s what we’re here to discuss. I’m Adam forest, the founder of change creator and this is the authentic brand mastery podcast.

All right, what’s going on everybody? Welcome back to the authentic brand mastery podcast. Now, if you missed the last episode, it is with Robin Johnson, we talked about getting your brand’s products, you know, to kick some ass on Amazon, right? You know, this is a great revenue channel. So if you miss that, you want to go back and check it out, she has a ton of experience there. And so today, we’re gonna be chatting with Rick Wilson. So Rick Wilson is the CEO of a company called Miva. They’re in the E commerce software, kind of SAS space, and they do all kinds of cool stuff there. So lots of expertise in that area, 20 years of expertise in retail, tech, e commerce, and they’re really investing in the future of E commerce, right. And we’re gonna get into some of the trends and things like that, you know, he’s an author as well runs, podcasts, all that good stuff. And so he seen firsthand the evolution of the economy is, you know, starting way back since the 90s. And so we’re gonna get into some really interesting conversation about marketing trends and E commerce strategies and things like that. So hang tight, we’re gonna get into that stuff with Rick. Okay, so what is going on with the Brand Studio, we have some fun stuff, guys. We’ve been real. We’re actually, you know, it’s been interesting, because one of my clients, John, we had a really great campaign at the end of the year of 2021. And so, you know, he reached out to me, he’s like, oh, man, we got to scale this thing to seven figures. So we’re, we’re working on that currently. And, you know, we just had these incredible, we did a unique kind of a weird strategy, that worked out really well. And we had this 86% opt in rate, and we’re kicking butt. So we’re offering any e commerce brands, we want to work with you and really run these strategies to take your brand to new heights, basically. And we will make a profitable sales funnel for you. And we’ll guarantee that just by saying, well, if it’s not, we’ll keep working for free until we do, right. We want to make it a no brainer for you because we know it will help you so you can reach out we got we actually have two spots open now. So if you guys are looking for that we have two spots open, they won’t last forever. Change creator.com You’ll find us reach out book a call. Okay, show me the heat. A Rick, welcome to the authentic brand mastery podcast. How are we doing today?

Rick Wilson  2:57 

I’m doing awesome, Adam. Thanks for having me.

Adam G. Force  2:59 

Yeah, no, I appreciate taking the time to pop in. You know, I noticed you’re in the E commerce space. And we’re kind of dialing in, as I mentioned, our little pregame conversation into that space more. And so yeah, I’m excited to chat since you got that experience. And I’d like to hear a little bit more about some of the trends you’re seeing and how you’re, you know, helping customers in that space. So all that good stuff, but maybe kick kick kick us off with a little bit of, you know, background on what’s going on with in your world.

Rick Wilson  3:30 

Sure. So I’ve been around. I don’t feel like an old man. And I guess technically I’m not. But I’ve been around e commerce for a long time I got involved in E commerce in 1999. Back then, Software as a Service didn’t exist. Salesforce was just a dream, right? Shopify didn’t exist, etc. And so we were one of the first e commerce platforms on the market back then. And we sold the web hosting companies. So I started out from the angle of selling to you No, but you wouldn’t buy software this way for the most part today. But we would sell to like the GoDaddy or the Bluehost. So the HostGator is the world right? Yeah, yeah. And then we sold the company in 2003. The people we sold it to it didn’t work out super well. And then in 2007, myself and four other people bought it back, we morphed it into a SASS company bootstrapped it for the first decade turn it into more mid market. So we focused on a little bit larger merchants people doing 1,000,200 million online, but it’s given me a really unique view of the world. And so you know, our customers do a couple billion a year in sales with a B, and and I’ve written a couple books. And so the I, what I’m passionate about personally is what entrepreneurs are doing, which is what this podcast is entrusting me right? Like when I was a kid growing up, I always knew I wanted to be a business person. I knew I wanted to run my own business. And I think that’s a special kind of person out there and I like talking to them.

Adam G. Force  4:51 

Nice. Yeah, I am, you know, I know that feeling and it is nice to kind of lead your own path and all that good stuff. And also just kind of come up with ideas help people. When you have that perspective, it can be a lot of fun. And so I’m curious, like, you know, just over the years now that you’ve been in the space for a while, you know, what are some of the things that you’re seeing, let’s think big picture for now, before we dial in, and just sure some of the trends, you know, in E commerce that may be a little less obvious for people, right? That might be helpful as we’re

Rick Wilson  5:29 

sure. So at a macro level, one of the trends I think that’s going on in E commerce is I’m gonna make a prediction right now that Amazon at least as the percentage of E commerce in North America has peaked. So Amazon’s always the Juggernaut there’s this sort of sense that a few years ago, the sense was really out there, that you know, why even having an independent store, just sell on Amazon. But Amazon has lost trust, right? So people, people worry about getting counterfeits. Now people worry about getting broken stuff, they worry about dealing with returns, consumer trust has eroded a bit in Amazon. And so I think I don’t think Amazon’s going anywhere, don’t hear me incorrectly. But they’re currently at like 40% or so of North American online retail. And I think that’s where they’re going to stay for the foreseeable future, as opposed to get bigger. And I think the rise of independent sellers, whether you’re selling T shirts via Instagram, on Shopify, or whether you’re selling auto parts via a platform like ours, I think that world has a lot of growth opportunity in front of it. And there’s still a huge, huge market. I wouldn’t call it you know, blue sky blue sky Greenfield. But there’s a huge market still, for digitizing businesses. And I think, especially if you’re younger entrepreneur, you might take for granted that E commerce is ubiquitous, because you’ve kind of grown up with it being everywhere. But it’s not as ubiquitous as you think there’s still an amazing amount of commerce happening the old fashioned way that needs to be disrupted. Yeah, I

Adam G. Force  6:57 

mean, that that’s fair. And it’s an it has been an interesting evolution, you know, things like Amazon, because you brought it up. I had just had several conversations with people and other interviews and stuff. And the thing I mean, I think it’s a good revenue channel that can complement your your primary hub, right your website. And but the thing about it is you’re not getting email addresses, and you’re not getting that data to really build your customer base, because they obviously they found people reselling that information, which is cannibalizing their business, which makes sense, you know, I can get that. But that’s a downside to me, which is big, because I’m a big I’m big fan of back end sales, which is, you know,

Rick Wilson  7:38 

pulling money out. And that’s where all the profit is, right? That’s the building or, you know, if that’s the whole point of building a brand, right? If I’m buying, if I’m buying an iPhone charger, right, I’m buying a little one of those little bricks to plug into. And I could buy one for five bucks at a gas station. There’s the that’s truly a commodity, right? And it’s it’s kind of meaningless, as long as it doesn’t blow my phone up or me up. But But Belkin if you take an alternative that sells the same thing for like 30 bucks. And the reason is, Belkin is built a brand, right, and they’re selling more than just a little brick, I trust their bricks not gonna blow up on me. Right, they’re gonna send me marketing emails with a bunch of other products, now they have magnetic charges that are, so you build a brand to get those long term repeat sales. And that’s, that’s the big difference.

Adam G. Force  8:21 

It’s a huge difference. I mean, I, you know, one of the things you know, we we build these Excel systems out, we’ve been testing some interesting creative concepts with people and, and we have found, like, when you really look at the KPIs, just for people listening, the key performing indicators, you can like break even, or even lose a little bit on the front end steps, you know, and in the sales process, but then you if you have that really smart back end and brand you build the brand loyalty and equity, it can just like 345 x the return. Absolutely just amazing.

Rick Wilson  9:01 

You know, I’m not even I mean, that’s probably more your space than mine. I’m not a performance marketer per se. But I know a lot of people in that industry. And that’s always been the rule of thumb I’ve been taught Celebrex where you can basically breakeven and get the customer data and then turn around and sell them seven times one product that’s profitable.

Adam G. Force  9:18 

That’s the golden ticket man because ecommerce is tough when you want to run ads because you can sure if you have a very low ticket item most likely so you have to get really creative on the front end and set certain expectations and if you don’t have that full strategy in place, you’re not making money on just selling a single product like if I see people who are like they have these you know, I have a Shopify template that says shop now button and I’m going to drive someone to a product page with my Facebook ad and you’re just burning cash.

Rick Wilson  9:46 

Absolutely. gets back to what you’re saying about brand. Right? So why do people you know, I always like to ask people why do you want Why should someone buy from you? Right and like, you know, so So my fiance and I have four rescue chihuahuas So we have a Brady Bunch of dogs I had to she had to we got together we have four and so we buy doggie bandanas from this company in San Francisco called the foggy dog and I don’t know them I have no affiliation with them but if you’re into if you’re into that kind of stuff go to the foggy dog and don’t even a customer they have a Shopify store I wish they were a customer and and they they’ve built a brand so they can seasonally send us emails with the latest bit you know, the Easter bandana and the Fourth of July bandana and the fall bandana. And it wasn’t long ago that my fiance likes me was how many dog bandanas can we own. But the fact of the matter is we buy about 20 a year for every three months every two months right? Because we get we’ve they’ve built a brand. Now, dog bandanas themselves just a piece of cloth and a triangle. That’s the size your dog’s neck is not a particularly that’s whatever. But they’ve they’ve hired designers, they’ve built brand marketing, they’ve built an experience about buying their products. And so you might think well, how do I build a brand around whatever my widget is? And the truth is, if you can do it around a dog bandana, you can do it around just about anything, if you really think it through and from

Adam G. Force  11:06 

Australia. Oh, yeah, you get the right, you know, we call brand brand blueprint for our purposes, but a brand strategy. And, you know, you really think through these steps, then yeah, the identity and everything else for the brand starts coming to life. Yep. It’s kind of shocking, because I see web designers who I’ll design whatever you want, but they don’t know anything about online sales marketing strategy, and they don’t even do a branch. I like to spend three to five grand for someone to just whip up a design that is almost pointless.

Rick Wilson  11:34 

We see that routinely in our world to where, you know, sometimes the stuffs visually gorgeous, right? You’ll see someone who however, they got it someone’s a very attractive looking thing. But there’s no UI thought no brand thought, right? And then they don’t understand why conversions dropped weight, you know, SEO? And they’re like, Yep, it doesn’t lead to buying.

Adam G. Force  11:55 

It’s a tough message to get across the people. And I will I you know, as a design like fanatic myself, I like pretty things. I like design, but I will tell people and I put it in my marketing. I’m like, I don’t really it doesn’t matter how pretty it is good design in my world is it’s converting

Rick Wilson  12:14 

absolutely 100% Yeah, I always used to, you know, this, this mindset changed, especially in the age of mobile and apps. But yeah, a decade ago, when I used to do speeches or presentations on this exact subject, I would, I would tell people think that you’re having a housewarming party, and you’re setting your whole house up in your mind for people to come through your front door. Yeah. So you’ve put all of your effort into presenting your front door and your walkway and people coming in. And I said, but what you don’t understand in the world of the web is 40% of your customers are crawling the bathroom window. And they don’t understand how they’re getting to their site, right? There’s clicking on a random link they found in a Google search that doesn’t lead to the entryway. Right. And if you haven’t mastered your conversion path, it starts by understanding how people find your website. Right. So how do p or or your app? But how do people find you? Like, how does someone know who you are. And if you can’t put your mind if you can’t put yourself in the mind of the consumer and walk through getting to know you as as a consumer does, then it’s very hard to optimize those conversions.

Adam G. Force  13:13 

That’s That’s very true. Very true. And so what what motivated you, I mean, we got the Shopify, we got the WooCommerce. I mean, there’s others that I don’t even play with. But you know, your platform is new to me, which I was just curious about. And I as an entrepreneur, I’m always like, Oh, that’s really cool. And it’s, I find it to be a very bold, you know, step in production and stuff. Because there’s obviously big players in the space. I’m a big believer that, you know, there’s room for everybody kind of thing, right. So what motivated you to take on? What seems to be a pretty damn big project?

Rick Wilson  13:54 

Well, yeah, and I don’t want to bore your audience too much the backstory. But this this project, actually, like I said, a little bit, we were one of the first e commerce platforms ever. So the the actual first iteration of our product came out in 1997. So probably most of your listeners were children. Okay. And we were, we were arguably, Shopify and WooCommerce, before Shopify and WooCommerce existed. So the backstory was during the.com, boom, we had about 250,000 active stores. So we were the most commonly used e commerce platform for small businesses back then, okay, that’s the good part of the story, the bad and I wasn’t the owner of the business then I was just here as a salesperson. I see I see that version of the business didn’t have any recurring revenue. So people would pay us 50 bucks, and they would own their their license. And that was it. So even with all those stores, we were never getting more than a couple million a year in sales, which we couldn’t you just couldn’t the two things didn’t match. Right. Okay, which is what led to sell on the platform. By the time I bought it back. Shopify was not a juggernaut. Shopify was a tight you know, Toby I Toby was a just an entrepreneur like me, and, and so and WooCommerce was As a budding little plugin, but they were neither, you know, is Magento at that time had taken off. And so, but the answer to your question is I wouldn’t go I wouldn’t necessarily today start from scratch to take on Shopify or WooCommerce. head on. I don’t know, that’s a wise move. But I am, and this is probably relevant to your audience. I’m a huge believer in this idea of have a specialty grow rich in a niche. Right. Yeah. So. So what we did was we knew we had a great e commerce platform. And we had, you know, people doing billions and sales who’s who loved our product. And I said, Well, what is it we’re good at? Why would someone choose us over Magento Shopify WooCommerce. And we’re good at specific things. We’re good at people doing business to business and direct to consumer on the same site. We’re good at huge SKU counts, right? You don’t normally see a Shopify store with 20,000 skews, right. And so so those are the things we’re good at. And we’ve we’ve really just focused on those things. You know, if something’s, I will sometimes joke that if my mom was going to sell T shirts, she should do Shopify, right, because that’s just not my platform is not designed for that. Yeah. But if you want to sell 20,000 auto products that are down to not just the model and year, but the sub year, you’re not doing well on Shopify. And that’s where a platform like meevo

Adam G. Force  16:16 

comes. I see. So that’s that’s a point of differentiation there. Yeah. So you do cater to certain kinds of businesses that have maybe more complex inventory. Is that what I’m hearing?

Rick Wilson  16:29 

Yeah, it’s well, it’s actually kind of complexity on anything. So it’s inventory. Inventory is the easiest one to describe. Right. But it could be shipping rules, right. So maybe you’re selling me and lobsters and they have to arrive just in time because you don’t want to dead lobster. So So shipping rules, payment rules, business to business and direct to consumer on the same site. Those are all the things we specialize in. So you know, if you want to do you know, and I’m not here to knock Shopify, but like, let’s say you owned 20 retail stores, and you wanted and you’re a regional, you’re not some huge brand, but you’re a regional brand, that people say in Kansas City know who you are. And you want to do buy online, pick up and store doing that on a Shopify store is near impossible because their API limits those kinds of things. Right in our wheelhouse.

Adam G. Force  17:13 

I see. I see. That’s interesting. Yeah, you know, and there is interesting. Like I worked with some I talked about this with the last person I spoke with about e commerce because I’m always curious, one interesting challenge I came across and I don’t think it maybe this is not actually applicable for you, but you might have some thoughts or insights just from people in our audience who might be similar, which is an e commerce Store that is doing local only. And they have food products that are perishable, meaning no preservatives. Yep. You know, and I, that was an interesting challenge that I kind of came across. So you know, local SEO, obviously, is an obvious thing. And and then local delivery and things like that. And have you dealt with companies like that with those kinds of constraints? And what kind of do you have any thoughts on strategies that might be helpful for for businesses that are small and local, and trying to have, you know, healthy foods that no preservatives, right?

Rick Wilson  18:11 

Sure. So um, Miva itself definitely handles clients like that. I mean, that’s when you talk about complexity, that that’s the kind of complexity, okay, don’t specialize. And I don’t know that I personally have any strategies around that subject, just because I know, we have, we do have this unique niche and specialty foods. So that kind of stuff our team deals with all the time. But I can tell you normally that kind of stuff, the complexities there and the things you’re trying to solve for our, you need to know. Because it’s perishable, you need to know real time inventory count, you need to know how exactly what time deliveries are being picked up, you need to know when deliveries are being delivered. Yeah, so it could be hyperlocal, like you’re delivering via Postmates. Or it could be just, it’s got to be there in two days. And you got to know that orders that come in by 2pm, mountain time go out via FedEx specialty, and they’re going to arrive, you know, two days more later by 10am. And so, yeah, those are the kinds of things that where you’re going to need a more specialized platform to help you saw,

Adam G. Force  19:08 

yeah, and that’s the kind of thing it’s, you know, kind of like you only have two days to deliver, because it’s a seven or eight day life span for the product. And when you do that shipping costs get really expensive, right? So you kind of hit these barriers, and you got to get pretty creative on you know, getting traffic and all that kind of stuff. So that was an interesting little roadblock that we ran into that we’re solving for, so I just wanted to pick the brain on it. But yeah, I’d be also curious as far as So, let’s talk a little bit about you know, somebody is coming to me but now this is I’m thinking of it as specialized ecommerce almost right. So complex inventory, but also could be restrictive shipping and very, you know, niche focused types of constraints. Some things to deal with. Um, and so do you have any maybe examples on? What’s the process, like when someone signs up on that platform versus building it out on? You know, we do a lot on WooCommerce, and things like that. So what’s the can you give a little explanation between them?

Rick Wilson  20:20 

Sure. And I don’t know how different it’s gonna be per se, from platform to platform, meaning there’ll be small differences. But the real trick, the secret to success, whether you’re on Miva, Shopify WooCommerce, yeah, big commerce, the secret to success is having a well thought out project management plan. So, you know, let’s use your specialty, for example. So let’s say I have a product that I make I make it five days, let’s say I make fresh cookies, and make these fresh cookies five days a week, and they’re good for eight days. Right? Yep. And let’s say I have a combination of regional delivery. So people and some people who are far away are willing to pay a bunch of shipping, but mostly I’m going to ship to where Priority Mail can get to in in 48 hours, right. And, but I also have some distributors who want to buy the stuff, right, so you’re going to start with a project plan, okay, so the distributors, they’re going to buy in bulk, maybe they’re only going to ship to distributors on Monday for the stuff you cooked on Friday, because then you’re going to charge their shipping account. So you need to lay out your whole business, your business needs to be in a Gantt chart. And if your business is all AI not to not to, not to geek out. But if your business is truly laid out in steps and systematized, then laying those systems into an E commerce platform is I’m not gonna say it’s easy. Nothing technologically is actually all that easy. But it’s doable, and you can succeed. And what you’ll find is and what I find, and it can be, you know, it can be on our platform or any other platform is if someone if someone doesn’t have their steps laid out, especially when there’s a complexity, right, it’s going back to selling more commodity items. If I’m selling a if I have a small clothing line, then I’m using a three PL or an eight Fulfillment by Amazon to fill. Yeah, right. And there’s no particular rush on the item getting there, it can get there in 257 days. You know, the hardest part there is getting a client. But in these other industries, where maybe you already have a built in demand for clients, the hardest part is getting them the product on time, while still fresh, you’re selling flowers would be a good example of that. Yeah, in a lot of that comes down to having your business process ties, and then working with an E commerce consultant, who knows how to actually get that process going. And I think my experience is the people I’ve seen who succeed are the ones who either are masters at that or are willing to hire the experts to get those systems in place for them.

Adam G. Force  22:37 

Yeah, I mean, I have to agree that having one just the thought process and thinking about all that, and then systematizing, I do love the idea of getting a combination of a strategy to run paid ads, but also a strategy for distribution. So even if you’re local, there could be local outlets that already have traffic and people that you can now borrow. Yeah. And every week, you can do fresh deliveries that they sell and do those types of things. So yeah, there’s there’s a lot of coordination, I guess. And it comes down to the hustle on the team to get it all set up to

Rick Wilson  23:10 

and you know, that’s, you know, if you have people like let’s say you have a, let’s say you’re a budding brand of a specialty food item, right? Yeah, that’s got a short shelf life. Using local distribution to get your brand out there is great, but also you need to pair that going back to your the original thing we start with, you do want to pair that with having a website where people who have now become loyalty to your fresh foods calm, because you know why your margin when you sell to them direct is going to be three times what you’re getting from the distributor. So the distributor becomes sort of your your inverted advertising costs, right? Yeah. And you build your relationship with this customer. And then now the customer coming back to buy the goods, you know, let’s you know, more traditional concept of we say nutritional supplements, right? Maybe you buy it the first time at your gym as a model in your mind. But then you go sign up for a subscription on the website, right, they might have broke even by selling it to the gym. But if they get a subscription of it from the website, they’re making a killing. And that’s the kind of thinking and entrepreneurs should be doing about how to get more business.

Adam G. Force  24:07 

I love that. And I love having E commerce with built in continuity programs. So those scription models and things like that. I think that they’re really smart. And that can be great to just like you mentioned, if you start getting the loyalty, that’s the back end right on through the emails, you get them into the subscriptions, which are

Rick Wilson  24:25 

impactful, you know, I know it sounds almost cheesy, but game theory works. Points work. Loyalty. Yeah, bonds work. Yeah, people want to be rewarded for their loyalty

Adam G. Force  24:36 

rewards. Yeah, that’s classic. I mean, it’s still I think there’s still something to be said for it. As long as it seems like a good deal. Everybody wants a deal.

Rick Wilson  24:43 

That’s what everyone wants. I mean, yes, you can boil all marketing down to that everyone wants a good deal. Everyone be the guy who knows someone.

Adam G. Force  24:50 

Man. Awesome. Well, it’s been fun chat and I gotta wrap up here and get into the next meeting. But let’s make sure we give a shout out. Anybody that is looking to explore What Rick has gone on over at Neva? What’s the the best URL and place to check out?

Rick Wilson  25:05 

Sure the two best places to find me are Miva which is m like, Mary M i va.com. So miva.com And then my podcast and book you can find a dragon proof got us out it was awesome being on here. Thanks for having me.

Adam G. Force  25:18 

Yeah, I appreciate it man. Thanks for tuning in to the authentic brand mastery podcast. Don’t forget to stop by change creator calm for more information, fresh articles, content and our services if you’re looking to build a brand that people love, and please stop by iTunes, leave us a five star review. We appreciate your support.

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