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The legal stuff tends to be the last thing we want to tackle as entrepreneurs, but what exactly do we need to know? We spoke with Jon Tobin who is an attorney and the founder of Counsel For Creators to find out the details.
Jon Tobin is an attorney who helps creative businesses on any legal matters involving intellectual property, technology or the arts. As a former software developer and designer, Mr Tobin can give insightful legal advice not easily found elsewhere.
Learn more about Jon and his work at > https://counselforcreators.com
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Transcription of Interview
(Transcribed by Otter.ai, there may be errors)
Adam G. Force 00:03
Welcome to the Change Creator podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn how to live their truth, get rich and make a massive difference in the world. I’m your host Adam forest co founder, Change Creator and co creator of the captivate method. Each week we talk to experts about leadership digital marketing and sales strategies that you can implement in your business and like to go big visit us at Change Creator comm forward slash growbig to grab awesome resources that will help drive your business forward. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Change Creator podcast happy to have you here. So if you missed the last episode, it was actually really it was. Okay, what’s going on everybody? Welcome back to the show. This is your host Adam for so excited to have you here today. We got lots of good stuff coming down the pipeline. If you did miss the last episode, Amy and I talked about why you should stop having a marketing mindset. Stop thinking like a marketer, why would we say that? Listen to the episode, you’re gonna hear why and it’s gonna benefit you and your business. The next person we’re gonna be talking to today is Jonathan Tobin, he’s actually a attorney, a lawyer who helps creative businesses on different legal matters around intellectual property, technology, the arts, all kinds of stuff like that. He’s gonna give advice around what you need to understand for your business, right from the legal standpoint, and then also show you how these things can make your business actually run more effectively. So stay tuned. We’re gonna dive into that in just a minute. Don’t forget to stop by Change Creator comm forward slash go big, get those assets that will help you advance your business forward. And of course, visit us on Facebook if you’re not already following us follow us there. We sends all kinds we send out all kinds of inspirational stuff and updates that was kind of like our main social media platform. And from there, you can also find our Facebook group, the profitable digital impact entrepreneur. We have all kinds of fun conversations and a good community of people that will help you Guys grow. Alright guys, I think that covers it. Let’s dive into this conversation with Jonathan and see what he has to say. Okay, show me the heat. We are recording everything seems good on the levels. All right, let me kick us off three, two and one. Hey, john, welcome to the Change Creator podcast show how you doing today?
Jon Tobin 02:23
I’m doing great. Thanks for having me. Great to be on here. Yeah, I
Adam G. Force 02:26
appreciate you taking the time. As I mentioned to you earlier, before we started this conversation here, I’m excited to shake it up, kind of dig into some of the legal stuff. It’s kind of it becomes this after saw a lot of times with entrepreneurs within the first few years of their business. So I wanted to dive into some of the things they need to be aware of and be looking at, you know, when they should be thinking about them and the risks and things like that. So if you could just give a little bit of background for people, what what you’re all about what’s going on in your world today, stuff like that.
Jon Tobin 02:57
Yeah, so what we do, I have a law firm called counsel for creators. And what’s our sort of mission here is to make the law user friendly for small businesses. So one of the things we’ve noticed is a lot of small businesses, sort of, like you’ve said, would treat legal as an afterthought, which might be fine in some cases, but in a lot of cases we’re seeing it was causing problems down the line. So things that could have been dealt with really early on in the business, these legal problems have a tendency to grow as the business grows. So what we want to help people do is understand that law is accessible, that it’s there to support businesses. And so it’s, you know, it’s not something that you want to necessarily wait until you have a problem that might be too late. You know, you want to set things up correctly, whether that’s choosing the right kind of business, having good partner agreements, thinking about trademarks, all that stuff. So our goal is just to make that easily accessible. And we do that through we have like a subscription legal program that a lot of people join, to just get our advice, get our sort of insight into the legal issues that might face their business.
Adam G. Force 03:58
That’s interesting years ago. I did some consulting for some folks who are trying to disrupt the legal space and and do a lot of this like AI based, like legal services to really kind of like shake things up. And I love the subscription model format and having access, where it becomes more affordable for people, right versus that traditional studio. That’s the idea. I love that. And I think one of the biggest setbacks are people in the entrepreneurship space. I mean, everybody’s always strapped for cash when they’re starting a business because they’re putting all their money in the business and you know, you got to take care of the family. And so it’s like, well, who has another grand or two laying around to get a trademark or, you know, so you end up putting these things off? And, you know, like, we just as an example, we spoke to traditional lawyers to get get some stuff put together for our investor pitches. And you know, just getting all these things put together caps, tables, the whole setup, all these things, you know, it’s like five grand I was like, and that’s like, just to get started. Like, yeah, it’s wild man.
Jon Tobin 04:59
That was one of the barriers we noticed.
Adam G. Force 05:01
Yeah, yeah, no. And that’s why I love what you’re doing so. So let’s dig into your what you have going on a little bit. So I’m actually on your website because I’m kind of this is the kind of thing I get really interested in, I’d love to see this evolution in the legal space. So as you people get set up with you guys, now, they get access to just give it a little Give me just a little bit of insight on how it flows. Like what’s the user experience once you get to become a member?
Jon Tobin 05:29
Yeah, so when someone joins, they’ll get access, we have a member network that we’re building out with a lot of different content you can deal with other members. But the key thing is mean sort of the the core of the whole thing is you can schedule an appointment with myself or anyone on our team. So any any attorney, it can be me It can be my partner or associate or anybody else. And you can also submit documents for review and we did that. So again, it’s really easy to talk with us and so it’s not like you have to spend thousands of dollars to get any legal advice. You know, we’ve designed it to be $95 so you can get right in there and find out you know, okay, what do I need to know for this business? What do I need to think about a lot of people have that anxiety and we wanted to make it easy to get in there. So yeah, they get in there and they can get our advice and one of the things we often do because as you mentioned, it can be expensive to do things like register a trademark or get a good contract drafted or do something with an investor we can help people make a plan right so one of the things we might say is okay, you might not need to register your trademark now, but we’d say you know, plan on doing that in the next six months so people can you know, plan ahead they can budget they can think ahead for things and you know, also know that okay, I don’t have to worry about it right now. I can do it later. Some things are like that.
Adam G. Force 06:43
Yeah. Well, I’m so I’m curious because that’s an interesting as these models like this are popping up and I love this, like I mentioned, and I’m thinking about an experience I had, you know, early on with trademarking and I found somebody who was, you know, on Upwork or whatever. And they had experience doing trademark stuff. And of course, I was looking for the lowest cost possible. So I ended up going through all this stuff and having to resubmit several times. And then it costs more money. And it was just a mess, right? And we found out like the magazine we have, we wanted to basically trademark the name Change Creator plus the logo. And like we they would only take the magazine based on like the use of the magazine, it wasn’t just the name Change Creator. So like, and then we had to get into that space one and all this other stuff and the costs add up. So if someone’s going to get a trademark, are they looking for a trademark? Is it something they should be doing right away? Or should they wait? Like when’s the right time to think about something like that?
Jon Tobin 07:42
Yeah, so for trademarks, in particular, those are one of the things that we’ve noticed are pretty good investment as early as possible. Now, of course, money is always an issue. And so you know, we tell people, hey, if it’s not available, it’s not available. But the reason why is because one of the first things you do when you register a trademark that we always do with our Clients is you do a trademark search and so that it’s a pretty comprehensive search where we look for names that are similar. So any any kind of name that could conflict with a brand that you want. That’s something you want to find out early before you’ve invested in your brand before you’ve invested in that name and gotten it out to people. Because you don’t want a situation where later on you find out somebody else has a similar name, and they send you a cease and desist or you can’t get your trademark registered. So you know, kind of doing that search is a good start, but then also registration and make sure that nobody else can sort of clear space. So nobody else can adopt a name that’s too similar to yours and cause confusion. So it’s one of those things to do early. Like I would even say even before your brand is fully established, I would say look at a trademark early on, because you want to know any problems like the problems if you deal with them upfront, they’re, you know, it takes a little investment to do, but it takes a lot to change. It takes a lot to deal with that trademark conflict.
Adam G. Force 08:57
yeah, that is and I’ve heard that The horror stories
Jon Tobin 09:01
It can get bad.
Adam G. Force 09:02
It can get bad. Yeah, I’ve heard of smaller brands getting you know those letters from big brands and there’s really no way around. You can’t fight them. Yeah, yeah.
Jon Tobin 09:13
Yeah, it happens. It’s so nice. It’s just a money issue. You know, the big brand has a lot of money to throw at it and you may not and you know, even if you have a good legal position, are you willing to spend $10,000 to prove it out?
Adam G. Force 09:26
Yeah, exactly. And so if if somebody was like, Alright, great. I want to get a my trademark completed. Let’s say you have a business, your e commerce and you want your name and logo. So I mean, they can go to you guys and you have this membership. But you can get involved now is the $95. I have to assume there’s additional costs to actually get the trademark in addition to the 95. Just so we’re clear. Is that is that true? Yeah.
Jon Tobin 09:53
Yeah, yeah, that’s how we do it. So anything where it’s sort of, you know, getting a trademark or setting up a new business Or drafting a contract, we typically do a flat fee for that. And so we try to make those affordable. And obviously people can contact us about it. But yeah, we try to make them affordable flat fees just so people know upfront, okay, here’s what it’s going to cost. So we don’t do what a lot of law firms do, which is Bill hourly, and you don’t know is it going to be 600 bucks, six 6000 bucks somewhere in the middle. Our sort of goal is we want this to be predictable. We want people to be able to budget for this, like they budget for anything else. Yeah, I mean,
Adam G. Force 10:27
so and, and as you start growing as a business, I mean, here you have this for 95 bucks a month, you can have access to ask questions, that includes things like contract reviews and things like that.
Jon Tobin 10:39
Yeah, yeah, that’s what it is. It’s really, you know, we sort of use that as sort of preventative medicine, right. So one of the stories I always tell is, I would have clients who might have a legal problem, right, and they don’t come to us and this was in the old days before we had the subscription. They wouldn’t come to us because they didn’t like to be billed hourly or whatever. And so they would have this legal problem that would then build and build. And by the time they came to us six months later, that problem was way bigger and way more expensive. So what we wanted to do is make it be like, you know, okay, let’s make it easy for you to contact us when that problem starts to develop, because there might be something we can come up with in 10 minutes, that solves it, or at least, you know, helps you out of it. Same thing with contracts, you know, the time to negotiate a contract or for us to fix something in a contract is before you sign it. So we tell people, hey, send it to us have us look it over, we’ll point out any issues and, you know, just so you can go in informed when you sign a contract.
Adam G. Force 11:38
Yeah. And it’s nice to if you can get um, you know, for your business or types of services, you provide, like to get contracts that are templates that you can use moving forward with clients and things like that, too, right?
Jon Tobin 11:51
That’s right. Yeah. And so we offer that and then you know, also helping people understand how do you develop a good contract. So you know, one of the things we often talk about whether Our clients and people on our network is what kind of conversations Do you want to have, even before a contract is written? What kind of understandings Do you want to come to, you know, and when we’re talking about things like ownership, or royalties, or anything else that might come out, but we want to make sure that everybody’s on the same page, before we actually put it into writing. So that’s something else that we sort of coach people through.
Adam G. Force 12:22
Yeah, I like that. And I’ve been through scenarios where, you know, when early days people get eager to partner up with others, right, oh, we’re gonna partner we’re gonna work on this project. And then, you know, before money’s being made a loosey goosey contract is okay. But when real money starts coming in, and everyone starts to go, Oh, wait, wait a minute. And then if you don’t have a button, we’re all gonna start referencing that contract. And it’s like, well, wait a minute, we didn’t say this and say that and, and and you have to elect right.
Jon Tobin 12:50
Yeah, you have conflict, and that’s when it becomes expensive. Those are the kind of things where, you know, I’ve noticed as a lawyer, it’s it’s the conflicts that are expensive. So when you hear about Lawyers charging a ton of money. Yes, there can be a lot of money on things like setup, especially as as it gets complex. But it’s an order of magnitude more to have a conflict, you know, it’s, you know, 10 or 100 times more in terms of cost, and energy and distraction, to have a fight with someone legally than it is to set things out early on. And sometimes, you know, sometimes it does feel like overkill at the beginning, why do we need to discuss all this stuff. And the reason is, is if your business is going to be successful, there might be tension later and let’s not have that tension turn into a fight.
Adam G. Force 13:30
That’s that’s, that’s what I’ve learned over the years is, it seems like unnecessary upfront to be so formal and get it all buttoned up and invest in any kind of money into it. But when you are if you are taking yourself seriously and you are gonna make money, this type money changes dynamics among teams. So if you don’t have everybody on the same page, and it’s not clear, it can really it can tear the team apart and destroy the business and the at the end of the day, too. So yeah,
Jon Tobin 14:01
Same Yes, Sam Exactly. Like I’ve seen it where, you know, we’ve seen people where their businesses successful customers like what they’re selling, they have a good mission. They’re clear, everything’s good. But then there’s a fight between the partners. Yep. And the business goes away. Exactly, exactly.
Adam G. Force 14:17
So let’s talk a little bit about like, co founders, co founding teams. I’m curious, you know, it’s like, everyone is like, Well, one thing that we’ve done is we historically, like in the beginning, we put off getting like a contract a formal contract, we get an agreement verbally, but then we don’t have a co founder contracts, for example. Is this something that you know, we should be people should be addressing right away? Is it something that can as long as you have verbal agreement can be done later? You know, stuff like that. I’m always curious about that, that setup as well.
Jon Tobin 14:55
Yeah, what I tell people is something like that, and I think with any contracts, This might be true. The answer is that it’s scalable, right? So, verbal contract is minimal, right? So that’s the most minimal thing you can do, hey, we’re going to split this 5050. So anything that comes in, we split 5050, then, you know, you scale it up a level. And again, this is going to depend on resources and time and inclination. You know, the next level is okay, we have a sort of informal written agreement, even a piece of paper that we hand wrote that says, 5050, you know, and this person is responsible for costs or has to put in more money later, then the next level is a more formal written contract. And then you know, so that you can make those contracts as complex as you feel that you need to. So if you’re like, hey, a two page agreement works for us, it captures everything because what we’re doing together is clear, fine, but you know, if it’s a more complex thing, and there’s different level of investors, we always want to scale that contract up. So the point is, is something in writing I think, you know, the main point I’m trying to make here is something in writing is better than nothing, because One of the reasons we do writing is it’s a for accountability. And it’s B to remember. So one of the things is the human mind doesn’t always remember what was said verbally a year ago or six months ago. And if it does remember, was that just a suggestion? Or was that actual commitment? Yeah, you know, and we’ve seen that where someone’s like, I’ll make you a founder, you know, and, okay, but we’ll spin that around.
Adam G. Force 16:21
no, no, that’s not what I said.
Jon Tobin 16:24
Exactly. So we write it down. So you know, even with the best intention and best memory and all that the human mind just doesn’t keep information or like that around perfectly forever.
Adam G. Force 16:35
Right. Right. Now, that makes sense. Yeah. And there’s two areas of like, you know, dividing up, you know, and maybe you can share some feedback here to give people a little bit of insight. One is around the co founder setup, and the other would be around preparations for investors. So, the first one around co founders or co founding team. I mean, how should people be thinking about bout, you know, the splits like is it? You know, for example, if someone starts a company, they’re in it for a year, then they bring on a co founder and then another one. And so there’s a, there’s a stagger in time invested money invested and things like that. So how to any insight on how teams should be thinking about that stuff?
Jon Tobin 17:22
Yeah, I mean, generally, I think the sort of economic way to go about it is, the more risk that somebody takes, the more sort of risk they take, especially at the beginning, the more rewards so that’s why you’ll see, you know, angel investors might get more than, you know, some later round when we’re talking about like a startup, right? Because that first person is taking a lot of risks, so maybe they are going to be able to get more value out of the resulting thing. So
Adam G. Force 17:47
yeah, it’s it’s, it’s also the contribution right? And so anytime you have a company, you’re going to have shares, you’re going to have equity and that equity is divided by Well, what is this person putting in, you know, what is this organization putting in? are they putting in money or Putting in time experience, what are they contributing? And then what you know, what’s the value to the organization? How is that going to carry forward and create value in the future? And then so how does that person benefit? Right? So you got basically what experience and maybe your network like connections that you’re bringing that bring value, it could be your time and expertise, the work you’re actually doing as value or just a financial investment. So if someone started something, and you put in 10 grand the first year, if you came in, you want to do a 5050 split as a co founder, you can either bring some kind of value that’s a substitute for that 10 grand, or just put in 10 grand and match it, right?
Jon Tobin 18:38
Yeah, and it’s really, you know, you could sometimes you can reduce it down to numbers of Okay, this, you know, this service, you know, would have normally cost you $10,000. So, you know, in exchange, I would like $10,000 worth of shares, please, you know, and it might be more, there might also be a risk premium, because there’s a chance you don’t get paid, you know, and so you might say well You know, normally I charge 10,000, but I want to premium. So, you know what? $20,000 worth of value.
Adam G. Force 19:06
Right? Right. That makes sense. Okay. And so the other big, big area for people, especially who are listening here today is, you know, when we’re approaching an investor, I mean, there’s a lot to, to consider and in those circumstances, and, you know, we always when we did it in our earlier days, you know, we had a lot of conversations with different lawyers and investors and stuff like that, and when is it appropriate? Like, I guess, you know, you go through and you got to get it set up with like, you know, different cap tables and all these different things. But you don’t necessarily always need that right away. So I want to give people who are listening, a little sense of, you know, if you’re just starting to kind of pitch people and get out there, what do they need to be prepared with and when should they be taking steps to invest in getting legal setup with everything?
Jon Tobin 19:58
Yeah, so I mean, I think the Initial preparation is just sort of understanding what your business is worth initially. And it’s not always going to be immediately clear. I mean, it’s very hard to value a brand new business. Yeah. But I think as you start getting numbers as you still, as you start building a history of what the business is doing, then you can actually have a good sense of, you can have a good sense. Do you still hear me?
Adam G. Force 20:24
I do. Yeah, you’re good.
Jon Tobin 20:26
Okay. Yeah, you get it, you start to get a good sense of what the business is actually worth. And so at some point, there might be something maybe you guys have heard the term like evaluation event where somebody is going to put in money, let’s say they’re going to invest $1 million into the business, they want to know, well, what’s the business worth? Right? And at that point, maybe then you start doing cap tables and you start looking at Okay, you know, for someone to give $1 million. What do they get in exchange? What percent what equity do they get in this company? Right,
Adam G. Force 20:56
right. Yeah, that was an area that We actually never ended up investing in ourselves. And I do hear a lot of people having conversations around. Well, what do I need? And how do I get set up? And if you don’t know, and you’re not clear on it, you could take a lot of wrong steps, which is why I’m I was asking that question. Yeah. And we hear it a lot from people in our, in our audience, just who are everyone gets excited about pitching, but they don’t really know what they need to get set up and do that.
Jon Tobin 21:26
Yeah, yeah. And there’s pitching and then I think, you know, there’s the second step of actually having a deal, you know, an understanding, you know, what it is that you’re that you’re giving, right, you know, so, you know, if somebody is investing, they want something, they want something in return, you know, so if they’re making a financial investment, so they might want, you know, simply a financial return, or they might want control, so they might say, Hey, you know, as consideration for our investment, we also would like a board seat, you know, or some sort of other preference so that they have control over how things go and so you’re you might end up Partnering with someone so you know, not every investor is the same, you know, you want to find someone who can really contribute to the mission and not just financially necessarily.
Adam G. Force 22:08
Yeah, that makes sense. For sure. Yeah, we always we always had the thought process of not just getting an investor but a strategic adviser, somebody that can really support you know, the approach and thinking of the company as well with their connections and stuff.
Jon Tobin 22:24
Yeah.
Adam G. Force 22:26
Yeah, I’m looking to like, you know, I’m looking at your site here, like so as people are thinking about their business setup. You have just under your services, business setup, legal subscription and trademarking stuff like that. Tell us a little bit. I think the business setup would be relevant for a lot of people like business setup and trademarking. So, can you tell us a little bit about the business setup?
Jon Tobin 22:46
Yeah, that’s another one along with trademark that we feel is really important at the beginning. So, business setup that can be as simple as somebody setting up an LLC to house their company, right and so, you know, the The main thing is you’re creating legal separation between yourself and the business. So if something you know, and we don’t want this to happen, but if something goes wrong in the business, you have legal protection, your personal assets aren’t at risk or even your other businesses. And you know, of course, nowadays, a lot of people might have two or three businesses. And so if something goes wrong in one, we don’t want that to affect the other. So business setup is part of that, you know, setting up an LLC, or a corporation, it becomes even more important kind of going back a little bit in this conversation when you’re partnering up. So doing an LLC or a corporation by yourself is easy. You make all the decisions, everything is on you. It’s your responsibility. It’s your reward. But once you start getting two people or three people, we want to make sure that everybody has a good understanding. Right? So what’s the ownership share? What is everybody contribute what’s expected? What happens if someone leaves how do we bring someone new in so we’re going through and answering all of those questions at the beginning, rather than trying to figure them out later, and as you said, especially when money is involved, People’s positions tend to become more static. There’s less flexibility.
Adam G. Force 24:04
Yep. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think talking through all that up front is valuable. And I know when you start looking at investment, too, there’s benefits to moving away from being an LLC to like a corporation of some kind. Is that right?
Jon Tobin 24:18
Yeah. Yeah, that is true. What? You know, what I tell a lot of my clients is that investors, they typically, and it’s not always a Delaware C Corp, sometimes you hear people say, well only do a Delaware C Corp. That’s not necessarily true. But what investors typically want is they’re going to want shares in a company. So these are just similar to shares that you might buy on the stock market, they’re gonna want to purchase a number of shares from a corporation and LLC doesn’t have that what’s cool about LLC is they’re simple to set up. So if your plan is not to take investment, or like, Hey, I’m going to self fund this an LLC might be the answer, but if your plan is, I would like to take on investment at some point maybe a corporation is and you know, another thing that we also point out If these things aren’t necessarily set in stone, so you can convert things later. So it’s not like, once an LLC, always an LLC, you can change things. You can restructure things. It’s all flexible. Right?
Adam G. Force 25:11
Yeah, that makes sense. So john, what what any other, I guess top of mine, like risks or things people should be thinking about in the early stages that we haven’t covered already?
Jon Tobin 25:22
Yeah. And we talked about branding and trademarks. We talked about contracts, we talked about business setup. Another thing I would tell people, and especially people listening, and a lot of the people we work with, is starting to know a little bit about things like copyright and other intellectual property. So a lot of businesses now innovate. They create things, whether it’s ebooks, videos, marketing material, anything that is creating value in your business that you’ve created, is protected, potentially by copyright. And what that does is it allows you to stop other people from copying it. And so you know, copycats do exist. And so I think, understanding what those creative assets are that you have is going to put you in a good position to know, okay, here’s how I protect that maybe copyright registration or DMCA takedowns, or whatever it is just understanding how to work with those creative assets that your business is producing.
Adam G. Force 26:11
Yeah, makes sense. That is a big one. I remember years ago, starting like a media company, I had to do so much research on that. So getting the quick guidance on that would save a lot of time and a lot of stress.
Jon Tobin 26:27
Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s, it’s it’s hard. It’s hard to you know, if you go on the internet, and you look for answers to legal questions, sometimes you can find good answers. But you know, I’ve had people where they, you know, again, this was even before we had the subscription, they’d say, I spent all weekend looking for an answer to this question. And I’ll say, you know, we could have I could have answered that in five minutes. We could have been doing something else. Exactly.
Adam G. Force 26:48
Um, something that comes to mind we’ll wrap up here is when is it appropriate to use the TM
Jon Tobin 26:55
symbol? Hmm. That’s a good one. Yeah. So tm, you can use tm any Time, you sort of have a brand anything you want to assert trademark rights in. So that’s something honestly it’s you’re free to use it right so anybody can use it if you’re asserting trademark rights, you’re sort of building a brand now, the one distinction that we’d always make is when you see that are with the circle around it, that’s for only for registered trademark. So only when you actually have a registration for your brand, which sort of enhances your brand rights. And so that’s a special thing and you can’t really use the are legally at least unless you have a trademark registration.
Adam G. Force 27:33
So what does the TM do for you?
Jon Tobin 27:36
So all it really does is it puts people on notice that you are asserting rights in that so you know, if you say something like I have developed a brand system tm, right so you put the word tm, maybe you have some trademark rights and so whatever trademark rights you do have, you’re asserting them now one of the things I tell people is having trademark rights without a registration is something it’s not an Nothing, but it’s also not a lot, right? It’s not very powerful. So I always tell people try to move your way up from just being TMX to being registered because that actually holds legal weight now,
Adam G. Force 28:10
right, right. Okay, that makes sense. Perfect. Good to know, I think these are like the low hanging fruit questions that a lot of entrepreneurs have. So I appreciate you taking the time to share your insights. And I do love the the subscription model. So guys, you can check them out. JOHN, why don’t you go ahead and give a shout out where you want people to the best place to find you and learn more.
Jon Tobin 28:34
Yeah, so you can find us at counsel for creators calm, or you can go to creators legal program calm to see our subscription. And yeah, those are the two best places and you can find our email address. You can connect with us schedule phone calls with us right from our site and you know, learn anything you want to about what we offer. Awesome.
Adam G. Force 28:54
All right. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.
Jon Tobin 28:57
Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a good time again.
Adam G. Force 29:02
Thanks for tuning into the Change Creator podcast visit us at Change creator.com forward slash go big to get access to free downloads and other great resources that will drive your business forward.
