Jon Macdonald: Get More Sales Through Smart Optimization of Your Existing Website Traffic

Listen to our exclusive interview with Jon Macdonald:

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What if you could increase you monthly revenues without spending more on ads? What if you could just optimize what you already have and jump your sales up monthly? We decided to talk with Jon MacDonald, who is the founder of The Good, which specifically helps brands optimize their conversion rates to get more sales from existing website traffic.

Jon MacDonald is founder and President of The Good a conversion rate optimization firm that helps brands convert more of their existing website traffic into buyers. The Good has unlocked results for some of the largest online brands including Adobe, Nike, Xerox, The Economist, and more. Jon regularly contributes content on conversion optimization to publications like Entrepreneur and Inc. He knows how to get visitors to take action. As President, Jon has helped lead The Good to become one of Oregon’s top 20 fastest growing private companies. The team at The Good have made a practice of advising brands on how to see e-commerce sales double or more. In recent years, brands that have worked with The Good have seen an average revenue increase in revenue of over 100%. Jon volunteers for several causes throughout the Pacific Northwest and is an active committee member of industry associations and peer groups such as Entrepreneurs’ Organization (EO).

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Transcription of Interview


Adam G. Force, Jon Macdonald

Adam G. Force 00:03

Welcome to the Change Creator podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn how to live their truth, get rich and make a massive difference in the world. I’m your host Adam forest co founder, Change Creator and co creator of the captivate method. Each week we talk to experts about leadership, digital marketing and sales strategies that you can implement in your business and like to go big visit us at Change Creator comm forward slash growbig to grab awesome resources that will help drive your business forward. What’s going on everybody? Welcome back to the show your host here at force. If you missed last episode, we had a killer conversation with Gino wickman. If you don’t know Gino, he is the author of a famous book called traction. He also runs a company that has over 400 employees based on the Eos program. So we tap into all that stuff in that conversation. A lot of great insights about what it really takes to be an entrepreneur. Now Gino says not everybody’s cut out. So do you fit the mold and what does he mean by that? So really important conversation, and the guy knows his stuff. So dive into that. That was the last episode again, it was Gino wickman. Today we’re going to be talking with john McDonald. So john McDonald’s founder and president of a company called the good. And he’s all about conversion rate optimization, right? To help brands really convert more of their existing website traffic into buyers. I mean, something that we all want, right? So we want to get the most out of the dollars that we spend, we, at some point in our businesses, we have to actually put money into our marketing, right, the organic stuff is beautiful, and it should always be ongoing. But sooner or later, sales will plateau and we have to expand our reach and do paid marketing. And that means bringing more traffic to our website. And then the key is to get the most out of it. So the more people we can actually get into our sales process and have them become customers, the better the and the healthier the our business will be. So we’re going to talk a lot about converting And sales, optimization, all that kind of stuff today with john. So I think you’ll get a lot of value out of that. And just a heads up. So if you’re catching this today, today is what July 14. So starting next week, this will not be a timeless point here that I’m making. But if you are catching this at the right time, on the week of the 20th, we will be doing a live series on Facebook. And we’re calling it the mid year boost because it’s all about kind of what we’ve learned from this first half of this year and all the chaos with the pandemic and the civil rights movement and everything that’s happening. You know, we’ve all kind of have to take on different ways of thinking about our businesses and all that stuff. So we want to give people a mid year boost kind of reactivate and energize our businesses for the second half of the year. So we’re going to be doing a number of topics on that specifically, and to help out the different entrepreneurs and that’ll be going Live, I think it’s gonna be every day at noon next week. So the week of the 20th every day at noon, you can catch us on our Facebook page or group, okay? Now if you have a particular issue or challenge or something you’re facing in your business, and it’s a topic that you want us to think about covering, you can go ahead and email me directly. I’m happy to take your email Adam at Change Creator mag, comm email me, let me know what you’re thinking. And we will weave it in there. And then you’ll if you’re on our email list, we’ll we’ll put notices out and stuff about when we’re going to talk about different things. So, guys, yes, so live series next week, it’s probably something we’re gonna do more and more of, but we want it to do this mid year boost, because it’s just been chaos in twine in the first half of 2020. But a lot of entrepreneurs are having the best month of their lives. So let’s get into it so that you can start having the best month of your life on the second half of 2020. All right, guys, we’re gonna jump into this conversation with john McDonald. Don’t forget to visit us at Change forward slash go be okay. Show me the heat. No, you go. Hey, john, welcome to the Change Creator, podcast show. How’s everything going, man?

Jon Macdonald 04:11

Great. Thanks for having me today.

Adam G. Force 04:13

Yeah, you’re welcome. You know, like I’ve mentioned to you before this call, I’d love conversions and sales, and we need lots and lots of them. So I can’t wait to dig into it. So just tell us a little bit about, you know, where you are now with your business and how you got there just so we can get a sense, you know,

Jon Macdonald 04:35

of course, so the good we are, as you mentioned, a conversion rate optimization firm, so we help brands to convert more of their ecommerce visitors into buyers or customers. And we’ve been doing this we just had our 11th anniversary a couple weeks ago. So it’s been over 11 years now. And you know, we started out as a development shop ecommerce development shop. We were helping brands to Get online. And pretty quickly what we found was that was one commodity, right? So there were tons of development shops out there. And all of e commerce was moving over to software as a service like Shopify, etc. So they didn’t need that custom development, that high level development that we were able to do. And so I saw that trend coming down the line. And our mission at the good is to remove all of the bad online experiences until only the good ones remain like that. Yeah. And that’s how we got our name. And so I kind of went back to the roots and said, Okay, what are we what can we do that’s going to have the biggest effect in our mission? And how are we going to affect change online? Knowing that, quite frankly, shopping online is a pain in the butt, right? It can be can be, and it’s come a long way over the past 10 years, but you know, I went around the country and I interviewed all of our best clients and asked them why they hired us and said, You know, I’m just going to show up at your door, can you give me 1520 minutes, I’ll bring a coffee, whatever it takes. Everybody was willing to have a conversation, believe it or not, which was amazing. And they I heard kept hearing a common theme between all of them. And that’s that they didn’t hire us because we could build them the best website that hired us because we knew that one when we launched the site, it wasn’t going to be perfect. And to that, perfect perfection is not obtainable. But an continual iteration of improvement on the site, to make the consumer experience better to remove all of those bad experiences, was really the the methodology that they fell in love with and why they decided to work with us. And lo and behold, that’s basically what conversion rate optimization is today. Back then it really wasn’t a term. So that’s how we ended up where we are today.

Adam G. Force 06:59

Yeah, I love that. It’s it is it is an interesting art to really go through that iterative process. And I think, especially with a lot of people in who are probably listening right now I, we’ve been down this road ourselves, Amy and I and our team and stuff and many others that we’ve coached and things. So it’s people who like when things aren’t working, we can get into like this panic. And instead of really diagnosing the problem and making very simple updates and testing, we start changing everything and then we just get lost in this world of changes and we don’t know what’s working and then it just leads to this stress. That never really gets you to your your mark. Right, your goal. Have you seen a lot of that happen?

Jon Macdonald 07:46

Yeah, you know, in the best way to eliminate that stress because it is super common is is to use data, right? So don’t don’t guess and instead, don’t, don’t follow your competition blindly. Right, because you don’t know if something’s actually working for them and so many brands that are starting out, look at their competition. And they say, What are they doing? I need to do that too. Well, that creates a sea of sameness, right? And if you’re not going to be a little bit different than how you’re going to stand out and when, when that customer, yeah. And second, you really don’t know if it’s working for them or be if they were running a test that you got opted into, and you’re just seeing the test. And they were just trying to figure out if it’s working. Yeah,

Adam G. Force 08:30

yeah. I mean, what’s under the hood, you have no idea. Like, you see the surface of the model. And you’re like, and we see that too, like, Yeah, that’s a great point to make. Because people tend to look at their competitors and model them without really knowing like, what the magic sauce is underneath, like, based on circumstances you mentioned, or just all the workings that are happening that you don’t know about.

Jon Macdonald 08:51

Right? That’s exactly it.

Adam G. Force 08:52

dangerous, very dangerous, and it does happen a lot. We’ve been we’ve been down roads like that, you know, several years ago where we were, we thought we were being smart. And I always got to a point now, that was my first business with the second business Change Creator, I was. People will say, well, let’s do you have you done any competitor research? I said, No, I don’t care about my competitors. I’m not even paying attention to them anymore.

Jon Macdonald 09:14

And it’s interesting, but best econ businesses that we run into, say that exact same thing. They’re not concerned about their competitors, they’re concerned about providing the best experience for their consumers. Right. So, you know, if you track every click and movement on your site, and you can do this in aggregate, I’m not talking about individually identifiable information here. I’m talking about you know, looking at analytics, understanding where people are dropping off in the funnel, where they’re exiting your site, perhaps even where they’re spending a lot of time on an individual page, which is contrary to most marketers, most marketers will say you want a high time on site. I always say you want the slowest time on site possible because you want people to be able to get in accomplish the task they showed up to your site to do and then leave, because they’re not there to hang out. Right? They’re there for two reasons. One is to something or somebody told them that your product or service can help them solve a pain or need that they have. Yeah. Right. So they’re there to do that research. That’s the first thing. And then the second thing is if they determined that your product or service can help solve that pain or need, they want to convert as quickly and easily as possible. So anything you do to get in the way of that research or tech conversion, and it just makes people frustrated, and they have to spend too much time looking. So just tracking every click and movement can really help you understand what people are doing on your site, what content they’re engaging with, and there’s a lot of different types of data that are readily accessible are all within privacy regulations, and all can help you to just have a better experience online.

Adam G. Force 10:58

Yeah. I think that It makes a lot of sense. And I think a people where people get tripped up, and they’re a little bit afraid, is understanding how to not only read the data, but to even track it. Right? This is, this is not easy for a lot of people, especially when you’re in your first few years of business or you’re running solo, and you don’t have someone familiar with Google Analytics or whatever, you don’t know who to hire. If you hire them, you don’t know if they’re, you’re doing the right things. So like, you start having to figure out this foundational strategy at the beginning. And then you could really start tracking these things. And I think, you know, hiring obviously, a team like yours, who knows how to read the data to track these things is valuable. But what tips might you have for somebody to start thinking about their e commerce shop right now? And what kind of you know, analytics would be valuable for them to look at? And is it just as simple as using Google Analytics to do it?

Jon Macdonald 11:58

The short answer that Yes, it is. And here’s the thing. A lot of people do overcomplicate this and they get concerned that they they’re jumping into a tide pool that they can’t, they can’t swim in. The problem here is that Google Analytics in itself is out of the box is, you know, not that complicated. Now, you can add layers on top of it to get more rich information and have a better understanding. But don’t stress out about any of that. Now, all you really need to do is just set up two things on your site, Google Analytics, and hotjar hbot. That’s going to give you heat maps of where people cursors are on your screen and where they’re touching on mobile. It’s going to give you scroll maps how far down the page or people scrolling on desktop and mobile, and it’s going to give you session recordings. So this is going to be where they’re going to show you a user who and how they clicked or several users and how on average, they click around your page where their mouse flies around their page that kind of gives you an understanding of where they’re looking on a screen because yeah, on desktop, your cursor is generally followed by your eyes locked. So now, these pieces of data are not as overwhelming as people might make them out to be. And the best way to just get over that hump is set your expectations low, and just say, I’m not going to become a master at this right away. And that’s okay. All you really need to do is dive in and take a look at that data on a regular basis. So maybe every other day, spend 15 minutes look into the data. Right? All you need to do is just spend a few minutes a week. You know, if you’re spending more than an hour a week, I’d say you’re even probably spending more time than you should be looking at this data. Here’s what you’re looking for. You’re looking for an AB banalities. So what are the days or the things that are happening on your site that spiked or dropped and then trying to just look real quick and say okay, what did I do that day and that caused the spiker that drop. Did we send out an email and some message was really, you know, provoking and got people in? We did we make a change on the website that people really liked. You know, just all you have to do is look back on that. And it’s really about the rhythm. Right, you’ll start to see

Adam G. Force 14:17

the signing process. Like, when you say rhythm, it makes me think, like, get into a process that’s consistent and gives you the feedback loop that you need, basically.

Jon Macdonald 14:28

Yeah, that’s exactly it. And the only way to truly have that perspective that would come with a feedback loop is to be looking at it on a regular basis, so that you know what, something that is abnormal looks like, right? Otherwise, you don’t have that baseline. You don’t know the trend. And that’s really what you’re looking for here is just if you can pay attention to one thing, it’s just what’s the trend over the last week, over the last month, year over year, and then you can start doing you know, more advanced things, you know, and they’re not Given that advanced, you should use something in Google Analytics called annotations, you can google how to do that. It’s pretty quick and easy. But that’s just like, Hey, we sent a marketing email this day here is the topic. And you just start logging those things into Google Analytics with the date and time that you did them. And that really can help you just have some idea of what you did each day to your site, or your marketing activities that can really help you notice why those trends were changing.

Adam G. Force 15:28

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, as people are measuring these things, and this is in our program, the cat’s away method, we hone in on on making tracking important and simple part of the process because there is no growth without tracking, right, like you just, you’re just throwing darts without a dartboard, basically. And it makes a huge difference in one of the things that we have found personally with Change Creator too. I mean, right now we’re running conversions. You know, you know, lead magnets, opt ins and things like that are Around 70%, right. And I think you know that a big change occurred for us, not just on, you know, optimizing what’s on the landing page and things like that as far as like button copy and things. But it was as our story got more cohesive, and it aligned to the audience we attracted so they were the right audience, right from Facebook ads or wherever the traffic might be coming from, that holistically all work together more cohesively. So now the story was clear, the audience was attracted and related to it. And the conversion rates went way up, because it used to be closer to like, you know, 25 to 35%. And now, it’s going higher and higher and higher as we get more dialed in to that that internal narrative that the customer has.

Jon Macdonald 16:46

Well, I think you’re you make a really great point there, Adam, which is that a vast majority of folks run ads, and there’s no real connection to the landing page. You’re sending people to Yeah, in that connection, that context, the When somebody comes to a landing page, I get calls every day, we’re talking to people who want us to help just optimize landing pages, and they call up and they say, Hey, you know, we just want to touch our landing pages. And it’s like, Whoa, you know, that’s like telling me that you need new tires and only changing one tire. Right? It’s, you’re going to leave so many more problems there. Because that could really be solved. So don’t fix just a part of the problem, right? You need to fix the entire problem. And we don’t do anything at the good with driving traffic. It’s not where we play, we play on site. Once somebody reaches the site, we help make sure they convert as quickly and easily as possible. But understanding the context at which people are arriving at the site and what messaging was sent to them is a very integral part of then optimizing a landing page to resonate with that same audience and with a similar message so they know they’re in the right place. You know, obviously that message got them to click on the ad so then don’t He’ll he won’t ignore that message once they get to your site. But then a lot of people, it’s really, really common to bounce off of a landing page, but do something like just type into the browser, URL bar, the the the base URL for the site, because, you know, most landing pages get rid of navigation, things of that sort. So people look at, you know, if you’re not paying attention to the trends of data, you would just think two things really quickly, you would think somebody bounced off your landing page, and it was the ads weren’t working. Because when they come into your site, it’s going to be a organic or direct visit, because they just typed in the URL or deleted everything else out of the URL, just to get to your base site, right, your homepage. And so, you know, if you’re not paying attention in the data, you would miss that connection. And instead, you would just think, well, I’m getting a lot of direct visits. My ads aren’t working because people are bouncing off of the page, so I don’t need the ads anymore. Yeah. So it’s really easy if you’re not paying attention to data, too. To make assumptions like that, as opposed to data back decisions about what has been effective, what is actually working?

Adam G. Force 19:06

Yeah, no, it’s a great point. And you do have to look at the holistic experience, right? Not just a part of the funnel, you had to look at the entire funnel. And, you know, the steps in the tech are great, but to your point, just keeping things cohesive, having that story, really aligned just throughout the whole process is so important. And another thing that we have found valuable and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts is really thinking about where the traffic is actually coming from, because they are going to be in a different mindset, as far as the buyer journey. So if you get in front of someone on Facebook, that’s very passive, in sense of, they’re just kind of stumbling across something they weren’t actually looking for it versus, you know, a search platform like Google where they’re looking for something specifically, and you might offer it so that you already know they want that and the expectation is there versus on face. It could be a little bit different. So like we started adding certain things on the page, like, here’s what to expect with this. And we tell a little about who we are build up our credentials if they don’t know our brand, and, and we have seen stuff like that help the conversions. When we put the right information, it could be about us, it could be expectations, or whatever the offer is, and things like that. It seems to help a little bit. I’m wondering if you have any similar experiences?

Jon Macdonald 20:26

Well, again, I think it’s all about, you know, making sure you have more than one landing page. Yeah, a lot of a lot of brands that are smaller that we start working with, what they’ll do is just have one landing page and say, I don’t understand why this isn’t working. The challenges you know, you if you’re hitting on different pain points, again, remember people only clicking on that ad coming to your site because they have a pain or a need they’re trying to solve and they think that you know, you can help them do that. So you need to that needs to resonate and every audience might Have a slightly different pain, or a slightly different reason for clicking on that ad. So tailoring different landing pages to different markets and different ads you’re running can be really, really valuable. And I think it’s really important, you know, as you get into Google and people are searching around certain pain points in terms that you have a landing page that matches up with that, and is optimized for that. To address that concern.

Adam G. Force 21:26

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s such a good point. I love the idea of having multiple pages for to tailor it based on who that audience set might be. Another interesting thing that we learned was to separate your experiences between paid and organic. So we have it’s the same product, same sales funnel, but we have one for organic and one for paid and they could be tweaked accordingly. But you can also see the variations in the results and stuff to see what what’s doing better.

Jon Macdonald 21:57

Yeah, and again, it’s all about having to the right data tracking, right? I mean, this seems to always come back to that point. But it’s true like, otherwise you don’t know what’s effective. And you don’t know what’s actually being engaged with your consumers. So you really need to have that data to both, you know, the qualitative and quantitative side. And that means go and just ask people to take a look at your site and give you thoughts on it. So this is something that gets missed quite a bit. We, we do more advanced user testing, but this is again, something that a lot of people hear user testing, and they’re like, I’m gonna just run the other direction because I think it’s really complicated. You can make it very simple, especially right now while people are, you know, in their homes have more time because they’re not commuting, etc. Offer to get somebody on zoom, and just do or Google Hangouts or any of those and just say you know what, I want you I’m going to give you a 15% off coupon or gift card, for my Store whatever it is, I just want 1015 minutes of your time. And what I’m going to do is, we’re going to load up the website, you’re going to show your screen, your camera and your audio, and you’re just going to answer a couple of quick questions, you know, and speak out loud as you’re going through that process. So what do I what I mean? Well, first of all, let’s say you’re selling t shirts, just high level example here. You could tell people find the right t shirt and right size for you. Then just be quiet. And ask them to talk about what they’re thinking as they go through that. And there’s, you know, okay, well, I’m trying to find where the T shirts are on this site. Now I want to browse what category I like in these t shirts. Now I’m going to try to figure out what size is the best fit for me, and how do they go through all these decision points, right, really is eye opening. And you can learn so much just by watching somebody and observing somebody do that on your site.

Adam G. Force 23:52

Yeah, I mean, that is a classic UX, you know, way of doing things and seeing and I mean, that’s what hot jar is. helping with too. It’s it’s a little different experience. But I do love hotjar and the tools that you mentioned, because they are super powerful. And getting that kind of like, especially when it comes to e commerce, I think it is really powerful to see people and how they navigate your website. So you can see where are they getting hung up? And I guess it would be a little bit different when you see it in person versus you know, the hot jar approach. I they both serve a similar, I guess purpose, but you can definitely get some interesting different points, I guess.

Jon Macdonald 24:31

Yeah. And that’s exactly it. I mean, it’s having a full full picture of not only what people are doing, which is one hot jar will tell you, but also why they’re doing that. And that’s what you would do user testing for.

Adam G. Force 24:43

Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like a lot of people, especially early stage entrepreneurs, will feel like oh, like I just need to get this up. And they kind of don’t take these types of things seriously. Like it’s not, they’re not there yet. Or you know what I mean? And they skip these types of steps. And then you know, a year goes by, and they realize they’re just kind of treading water. And they’re not really making progress. And they wonder why.

Jon Macdonald 25:11

And this is, you know, again, if even if you don’t have any traffic to your site, you could do user testing. Yeah. And I highly recommend you do that before you would you’d go live with any new new site, you will have a harder time until you start getting more traffic to really see trends and data. But the traffic level doesn’t need to be that high. Right? I mean, you could have, you know, a couple hundred visitors a week and you’ll start seeing trends. It’s just a matter of, you know, making sure that you’re getting that more qualitative data early in the process.

Adam G. Force 25:45

Yeah, I mean, exactly. And that that becomes a big thing for people. I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to the traffic. It’s like, well, I don’t have that much traffic. So why would I go through all this effort to set up this tracking and everything else? I I started When people say that, because you’re gonna have to get traffic for your business one way or the other, and like you said, even if you’re getting 100 people a week, that is data that you want to be tracking, you just hope I guess the key thing too. And maybe this is a big point that when you work with your clients, it’s like, well, let’s say they’re getting 1000 people a week. But I guess my first gut check is well, are they the right people? Right, like, because if we have people that are totally irrelevant, you know, like, sometimes people will want to cut corners and be like, Oh, I’m gonna do Facebook ads, and I can get tons of traffic, and they’re just doing these countries that really have cheap ads and traffic, but they’re not necessarily their target audience. So is that even relevant data now? And it kind of like voids the whole thing?

Jon Macdonald 26:44

Right? Yeah. And you think that it’s really, really important to, you know, focus on converting your core audience before you would expand out?

Adam G. Force 26:55

Yes, yes. Yeah. 100% Yeah. You know, as as early entrepreneurs, a lot of times people have a very deep fear of, we call it a niche FOMO of actually going Nish, like looking for that perfect customer because it’s they always have a rationalization. Well, you know, I can I can help these people in these people and I want to make sure you know, it’s like, No, dude, you’re just hurt in your marketing. When you do that. I see it all the time.

Jon Macdonald 27:23

Yeah, no reason to waste your valuable money early on in the process. Really just focus on who your target is. and get those folks to convert. Once you do that you can expand out and start driving traffic. But the, you know, this is the problem with with paid traffic in general is eventually that paid traffic. In order to get more and more and more of it, you do have to expand the breath a little bit and you get less qualified traffic, you start going after keywords that are less and less relevant, right? But early on, you can really tailor that to just the folks that are Going to be most relevant for you. And that’s where you’re going to do a lot of learning. So if you don’t pay attention to the data early, you’re losing a ton of valuable information that is going to get more watered down, the bigger you get. So not having that tracking in place. As soon as you launch is a huge mistake, you really need to set that up immediately. And even if you don’t touch it, and you just have the data flowing in, you know, fine, you know, you got to set your priorities, I get that. But if you don’t set that up immediately, then you’re not going to have that historical data over the long term to even go back and study. So it’s really important.

Adam G. Force 28:38

Yeah, makes sense. Awesome, man. Well, I think this is all really valuable. And I guess the last thing I just want to cover and then we’ll jump I when it comes to e commerce, is there anything else that stands out to you for early phase entrepreneurs, that you see regularly with with clients and things like that, that they might want to be aware of when it comes to conversion? Specifically in the e commerce world, right, not just in general, but in e commerce?

Jon Macdonald 29:05

Well, I think that the first thing you should do, as I mentioned, is make sure you have the right data tracking, and you’re actually talking to consumers when brands don’t have that. It’s a huge issue later on. But beyond that, I think that the biggest concern I see is that a lot of these small brands are looking for quick wins, and they end up falling for gimmicks. And what I mean by that is they’ll put the latest Shopify app on their site that they feel like is supposed to somehow magically increase conversions. And the reality is they just don’t. There’s no quick win when it comes to conversions. I know that probably crushes a lot of people when they hear that. Here’s the reality though, it’s it is relatively simple to get conversion rates up if you start making data back decisions, but that means you have to have the right tracking and pay attention to it. And if you’re willing to make that commitment for even an hour a week, you will See your conversions go up and your return on adspend go up and all the other metrics that make you make an entrepreneur and e commerce smile, they will help be there. So I highly recommend that you really start giving that some thought immediately.

Adam G. Force 30:17

Love it. Thank you so much, john. Appreciate it. Let’s give a shout out where people can learn more about your business. Maybe they need your support. How do they How do they get in touch and learn more?

Jon Macdonald 30:28

Yes, so the good is just at th e, g, o d calm, so the good calm. And, you know, we’ve got a variety of optimization services that we can deploy for brands large and small. You know, we’ve been doing this 11 years. So we work with brands like Xerox, Nike, Adobe, the economist, but we also work with with hundreds of smaller brands as well. So I highly recommend checking out our conversion growth assessment. This is where we can help tear down your site and provide some really actionable feedback and it’s, it’s at a price point that is great for every brand large and small. Awesome.

Adam G. Force 31:09

All right man, thank you so much for all your insights and taking the time to share with us today.

Jon Macdonald 31:13

Of course, thanks for having me.

Adam G. Force 31:15

Thanks for tuning into the Change Creator podcast visit us at Change forward slash go big to get access to free downloads and other great resources that will drive your business forward.

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