There’s no doubt that entrepreneurship is exciting. But amidst all the chaos and thrill, it’s easy to get lost – and before you even know it, you’re just working FOR your business instead of having your business work for YOU!
And while your business may be your own baby, you may find yourself investing 60+ hours each week towards your business growth – which may not only have an impact on your health but will also result in you not being able to spend quality time with your loved ones.
But – that’s not a healthy way to operate.
Recently, Adam caught up with an expert, Josh Fonger, who is a business-performance architect and cofounder of “Work The System.”
Throughout their discussion, Josh shared valuable insights on how to start thinking about building your brand from a systems standpoint to detach, run more efficiently and grow over the long term.
Josh is a Business Performance Architect and the co-founder of Work the System. He is an international business consultant, coach, and speaker. He has the unique experience of personally helping hundreds of businesses grow simply, using the WTS Method.
His specialty is taking stressed-out entrepreneurs from working “in” their business to working “on” their business using systems so that profit and freedom can become a consistent mechanical reality.
- Josh shares his story.
- Josh’s background as a business consultant.
- The problem Josh discovered with his existing system – the missing piece.
- Josh shares his experience with the “Work the System” book authored by Sam Carpenter.
- How did Josh partner with Sam Carpenter to help companies incorporate the system documentation methodology explained in the book?
- How did Josh fix his own business after going through a 15-years nightmare?
- Josh and team’s experience with three businesses they helped scale with their methodology
- Client I – Medical Clinic
- Client II – Karate Studio
- Client III – Commercial Appraisal Office
- What do large companies do better that helps them scale and grow – that small companies fail to?
- How important is it for entrepreneurs to separate themselves from their business and align different business processes and systems?
- Focus on general operating principles – being able to trust people, treat the project and treat the technologists the same way you would.
- The importance of building your business infrastructure and documenting the systems and processes.
- Josh shares how to strategically grow your business – without having to worry about spending too much time in.
- When can small business owners see themselves working from the outside rather than inside after documenting their processes and strategies for efficient scale and growth?
- What are the biggest fears that people Josh works with have to get over to actually do what they do?
- Can businesses use Josh and team’s methodology during the early stages to elevate their revenue?
You may be generating sales – you may be earning profits. But if you don’t have documented systems and processes in place, you may find it extremely hard to scale and grow your business. In fact, you may be finding yourself investing 60+ hours towards your business operations – which isn’t healthy.
Remember – smart entrepreneurs don’t work for their business; instead, their business works for them.
And by documenting your systems and processes using Josh’s and Sam’s methodology, you can not only save a huge chunk of your time but also efficiently scale and grow your business.
To learn more, don’t forget to tune in to the “Create More Freedom and Revenue With Business Systems For Your Brand” episode today.
Learn more about Josh and Work The System: https://www.workthesystem.com/
Learn How to Systematically Grow Your Brand!
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Episode Transcript (unedited, will likely have typos)
Adam G. Force 0:00
How do social entrepreneurs and small businesses create an authentic brand people love so they can get the edge they need to stand out, create Predictable Revenue, and compete against the big guys. That’s what we’re here to discuss. I’m Adam forest, the founder of change creator, and this is the authentic brand mastery podcast.
What’s up everybody. Welcome back to the authentic brand mastery podcast brought to you by change creator. This is your host, Adam force and happy new year. This is our first episode since we’ve come into 2022. Now, we left you off before, we took a little hiatus and break. And I hope you did too. At the end of the year, we left you off with a thought that has been kind of pivotal for me in building two businesses. And, you know, that was a philosophy I discussed in the last episode. And I kind of dig into it in depth there. So if you missed it, I would definitely go back, I think you’ll find some inspiration, they’re kind of my goal there was to really create a perspective shift that helps you just understand just some of the human behaviors and how to think about yourself and how others may see you as well. And this is going to make a difference in in how you kind of execute on your business with all the decisions that you’re making. Alright, so this week, we’re gonna be talking to Josh founder, and this is such an important conversation as you guys build your brands. You know, when we’re doing these things, we have to be organized, we have to have systems and a lot of times we get sucked into being the person that wears all the hats and this is inevitable, especially when we are just starting or we’re you know, we’re running solo, we don’t have teams, I get that 100%. But we do need to start thinking from a systems approach. And that’s what Josh is all about. So we’re gonna talk to him about the consulting that they do and how it helps create better productivity and detaches you from your business. You can see it from that 30,000 foot view. Remember, you don’t want to work for your business, you want the business to work for you. And that’s what this conversation is all about. Don’t forget to leave us a five star review on iTunes and check out the latest at change creator.com. If you have an E commerce business, we have one spot currently open for our brand accelerator, guys, we will get you over 1000 leads per month and have you get paid for it. And if we don’t, we’ll keep working with you until we do. Check us out. Sign up for a strategy call. Let’s talk about your business. Okay, show me the heat.
Hey, Josh, welcome to the authentic brand mastery podcast. How are we doing today, buddy? Doing great. Got a beer. I appreciate it. And you mentioned you were calling him from Hawaii. How’s the weather?
Josh Fonger 3:03
It’s the same as it always is. Yeah. So probably heading to the beach today, actually. So that’s good.
Adam G. Force 3:08
I love it. Are you a surfer? Not a surfer.
Josh Fonger 3:11
You know, we’ve been here six months now. And so we’re getting there. Right now. My goal is to teach my three boys to surf. And then once they’re good, then they’re old man. We’ll give it a try. So that’s
Adam G. Force 3:22
that’s cool. That’s cool. All right. You said how many kids did you say you had?
Josh Fonger 3:27
Three boys. Then we got a little girl. So for for right now. The house is getting Wow,
Adam G. Force 3:31
he had a full house. Yeah, I have one child. And we have a second on the way. I’m already going, man. We’re crazy just for having to
Josh Fonger 3:41
get busy on your toes.
Adam G. Force 3:42
Yeah, yeah, that changes your dynamic as an entrepreneur. So you better start as we’re going to talk about working more on your business than in your business. When you have
Josh Fonger 3:53
like it opened up, you can actually have them start working in your business for you is doing that now. So that’s a good transition.
Adam G. Force 4:00
Ah, that’s pretty cool. I like it, I can learn a little something. And that’s how they can get real education. Right.
Josh Fonger 4:06
That’s what we’re trying to do. Actually practical. Yeah, definitely.
Adam G. Force 4:09
I love it. I love it. So just to get everybody grounded, once you tell a little bit of your story. You know, just I like to know a little bit about what’s exciting in your world right now, you know, today, like the most current events, but then we’ll get into just a little bit of backstory and what kind of got you there?
Josh Fonger 4:26
Sure. Yeah. Well, what I’m most excited about. And, you know, it’s this book, you know, work the system, which we’ve been excited about for over 10 years now. But as opposed to me being the coach and consultant, the guy who actually flies around and helps companies is certifying consultants around the world and getting them the tools or resources so they can actually do what I do, which is go out and help companies scale and grow with this methodology.
Adam G. Force 4:53
Cool. Cool. And so how did you learn these processes? What’s the background there?
Josh Fonger 4:57
Well, I’ll tell you the story. Short story I, I was a business consultant flying around helping companies. And what I realized was that after I left, give it six months or a year, the same problems would come back, and then come back again and again and again. And I realized there’s a piece I was missing. And that was the documentation piece. And Sam Carpenter wrote this book called work the system and, you know, providentially, we met in Bend, Oregon, had some coffee together, and he’s in his 70s. And so he didn’t need to grow up coaching consulting business, he was doing fine on his own. And but I did, right, we, we partner together at the time, and I basically took his book, and use it help companies using this, this methodology with with documenting companies systems. And so every company’s owner has their secret sauce in their brain. And maybe a few people kind of know it through osmosis. But they had the hardest time scaling, and growing efficiently and effectively, ultimately building an asset they can sell one day. And that’s, that’s where I got engaged to working with, with Sam. And still he and I chat every week about the business growth. And we’re just trying to help as many people as we can with with what he learned. And for those of you don’t know that this book, details how he fixed his own business. And he went through a nightmare for 15 years. And then he finally had an epiphany about how he could organize his company to scale. And that’s what I do I help companies take that same process.
Adam G. Force 6:32
That’s interesting. So I’d like to get a better sense of one, what are the types of companies that you’re primarily supporting? And is the model that you’re talking about? More specific for them? Or is it more universal?
Josh Fonger 6:51
Yeah, it’s universal. Yeah, we didn’t know that at first, you know, the book details and answering service, taking this methodology, and then using it. But what we realized was that as we got out to market, you know, the medical first three clients, one was a medical clinic that had, you know, three locations, and that that worked out great. Another one was a karate studio. And then that worked out awesome. Another one was a appraisal, office, commercial appraisals, okay, you know, and then it was, you know, then it was big bakers. And then it was online marketers, very different podcasts. And, you know, right now, I’ve got a client who sells car washes and maintains them. So it’s really, it’s it’s very high level. And it’s more of a mindset shift, a strategic shift, a company culture shift, and then you then infuse that into the various systems of your business. And so that’s what allows us to walk into a lot of different enterprises, and help them put this strategy on top of what they’re already doing. And maybe they’re already doing something that works already making money. And we just, you know, add this layer on top to make it more efficient, more scalable, more effective. And, you know, it’s basically what, what any large company does, the small companies don’t is large companies, document their systems, so that they can, you know, build their teams and scale and grow. And small companies don’t, they just never, they never do that. They always keep it in their head. And therefore, they call them Gillio. Businesses, they kind of, they have, you know, six months or a year, that’s good. And then they go back down, they got to cut some employees, because sales good, and then they go back up and down and back, and they they hit a plateau. That plateaus, either, you know, half million, 1 million, quarter million, whatever that sales plateau is for the business. And they just stay there, they stay there for a number of years until the owner gets burned out, or, you know, they have a series of bad luck. And then they got a business. But that’s the common small business. That’s, that’s 97% of companies out there are kind of in that stage. And we let them know that they’re, you know, if they shift something in their head, I call it the system’s mindset, there really is a potential where they can grow their business, it doesn’t have to be harder, it can actually can get easier as they grow. Not harder. And that’s what we tried to show them that path.
Adam G. Force 9:17
It’s interesting, and I, I can really see the truth, just from my own experience in what you’re saying about the yo yo, you know, metaphor and stuff like that. And you’re right, those processes. I think I talked to because I work with a lot of earlier stage entrepreneurs, you’re probably I think working with some more established people that are making closer to a million dollars a year maybe is and they do not have I mean, they have you know an idea of things, but to have real processes in place that is far and few between for sure. So I think And so tell me like do you see because you talked about the book, and how there is a mental like power Time Shift, if you will, for people in order to start taking actions a little bit differently that will allow them to scale further, right? So now is that kind of getting more comfortable with like, Hey, I’m setting up these systems and then more comfortable with how we’re actually I guess hiring or running, running advertising and marketing to let the company actually scale to the next stage, which is something they probably haven’t actually done before. What what is the can you give us a little taste of what some of the the ideas are behind it? Yeah, sure,
Josh Fonger 10:33
I’ll kind of walk you through step by step. And you’re right, the first thing is, mindset shift. So you don’t have you need to get any more sales or any growth person that’s versus just to, you know, kind of get outside your business be slightly elevated, look down, and then just realize that instead of saying your business is, let’s say, bakery, where you were, you just jump in there, and you you bake the cake to take the orders. It’s, it’s a composed of these separate discrete systems that happen day to day, week to week, month to month, and you can actually isolate them into the, let’s just say, 200, separate things that happen on a regular basis in the bakery. And, as the first thing is to is to separate yourself, so you and your business are not the same thing, that they’re different things, right. And that’s the first shift a lot of entrepreneurs have a hard time with because they become their business. And then you have to start thinking about your strategy. And we document in what’s called a strategic objective. But you know, is the actual core offering the you’re, you’re giving line up with what your customers actually want, which lines up with your pricing, which lines up with your technology, which lines up with your team, which lines up with how you pay them, which so it needs to be alignment, across the board, in your business. And again, a lot of companies, everything’s misaligned. And the reason being is that the entrepreneur, as learned how to make money, which means they, they cater to each customer type, they cater to each situation, they think on the fly, they’re willing to, you know, go above and beyond what a normal person would do in all sorts of circumstances. And so they’ve kind of created this, you know, Frankenstein business, that has taken them to a point and we say, you know, you’ve you’ve tested out all these different dead ends. Now, it’s about setting some boundaries, you know, you know, kind of greasing the wheels and setting setting a straight line, a straight course, realizing that you can’t do this thing over here anymore, and you can’t do that thing over there anymore. You need to make everything aligned. And that’s, that’s a really important step that, that really small entrepreneurs need to take that step. And this methodology, and you mentioned it, you know, it’s for big companies. And it is, but for small companies, it’s really important work because they can stay stuck because of the entrepreneurs ability to be so creative and problem solving, that they can’t come up with a repeatable system. And then once we do that, then it’s the principles. So as you bring people on board become general operating principles, you want them all to be making decisions the same way, consistently, so that you feel like you can trust the people around you to hold the ball for you. Knowing that they would treat the customer the same way you would, they would treat the project the same way you would, they would treat the technologists and what you would. And so these are all just infrastructure that you want to put in your business. And it doesn’t cost like the things I’m talking about right now. They cost a lot of time and thinking but they don’t actually cost any money. You don’t have to go out and you know, go buy a warehouse or you know, buy a new machine to do it. And then it’s the incremental steps of building the infrastructure of your business. It’s the system’s. Now, the system’s already happening. Right? The way you make sales is already happening. Use a bakery example, the way you bake the cake is already happening, the way you buy your products. It’s already happening. But you haven’t ever taken the time likely to think, you know, is this the best way to do it? How am I doing it? And let me write down the way it is being done so that I don’t need to do it anymore. And then you start to slowly piece by piece, system by system, find others who can can do that work and in some cases do better than you in fashion you and it’s a it’s about taking the next step towards that end point, which is a fully systemized documented business and I think like, they say, Wow, that’s gonna be too hard. It’s too much work. But you already working hard anyways, it’s just about working on the right things. And realizing that, you know, if you put one brick on a day, you know, give it a couple years and you’re gonna have this you know, you have a fortress, and but you do have to put that, that brick up each day.
Adam G. Force 14:43
Yeah, no, I love it. I think that’s really great because you know, if you’re, now if you’re earlier in your process, right? Let’s say you’re making $100,000 a year, okay. 200,000 Whatever. To your point. There’s a good chance you’re bringing in a few clients a month, maybe if you’re a service or consultant, and you’re doing okay, but it’s a lot of work, you don’t have the systems in place. So now you introduce this idea and your book. And you know, this process, basically, which has helped a lot of companies. You mentioned, like we’re gonna look at, we can isolate from a big picture point of view, the systems that make up the business, ultimately, as an asset right. Now as a smaller company with less resources, what’s the suggestion to people who are listening and thinking like, yeah, I love this concept of Systemising. I’m going to read this book, I’m not sure. How do they, because there might, if they don’t have a big team, maybe they have one VA, let’s set let’s set a boundary, I think about, I got a founder, I got a VA, we’re doing some work. But I got all these systems, my podcasts, I gotta get articles up on the site, and I missed you miss things like all the time, and I’m working and you know, you think to yourself, so it’s like, you want the consistency, but it’s too much. So how do you start? Do you trim the fat at some point and say, Hey, we got to have to look at what the critical path is, and get rid of some stuff? Like, how do you approach managing the workload?
Josh Fonger 16:08
Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question. And it depends. It depends on the situation. Yes, yeah. Right. So people that do have, they do have access to money. And so they, the idea would be to, you know, build out a team to take out those pieces, some people don’t, and their time is already stretched. So it is it is removing or reducing some of the things that you’re doing so that you can focus on the core elements that actually make you money. And oftentimes, as we’re doing this with companies, we are increasing their price, especially if anything that actually involves their personal time. So that just say, if they have 10 customers, and those customers are each paying them $1,000 A month, we might raise it to $2,000 a month. And yeah, they might go to say five customers, or six or seven customers, so they lost some customers, but they’re actually making more money. And they have more time, that’s usually a part of the shift that needs to happen is that anything that’s going to be custom solution that you personally are going to yourself, you’re going to have to increase the value of what you perceive your time to be and what you charge for it. But that’s, that’s one of the techniques. The other technique is to make what you’re already doing better or faster. So that means yourself personally. So be more systematic with the way you run your personal life. That’s what exercises we do with all entrepreneurs, we find that there’s a ton of waste in your, your day and your week where you’d be way more effective and efficient personally. And yeah, your VA you want to you want to maximize them. And, and if you are using part time labor like that, there’s likely pieces of what you do, once you’ve isolated them, that you could you can hand off, and they could start doing more and more of those pieces. And that’s a pretty common way to, for people to to start off as they know it. I’ve been doing this video editing for you know, whatever your podcast is, I want to probably do this now that I figured out the best way to do it, I’m going to hand this off, or maybe you’ve been doing your transcript yourself. And then you could hand that off. Maybe you’re doing your bookkeeping yourself, but you can hand that off. And so some of those things are easy wins to hand off to experts. But then eventually, you’re gonna get to the point where even the the service delivery that you do, once you figured out what is your service delivery, like in my case, you know, doing the coach and consulting was my service delivery. I’ve packaged that up. So now I can train consultants, and they can do the service delivery. Right. So that, but that didn’t happen today. That happened with the intention of I think is the other big thing that I want to make sure the audience gets is, when you have your own business at first, it typically has to do with, I want to just make enough money to pay for myself and take care of my own bills, and be able to do it on my own terms. But there reaches a point where you realize your customers need more the world needs more, you could do a lot more good in the world. And it’s not just about you anymore, it’s about expanding to to make that impact. And that’s when you realize you have to start taking treat your business like a business as opposed to treating it like, well, I work hard enough to pay my bills and go on vacation. But I’m not going to ever go beyond that. I think that’s kind of shortchanging what you can do in in the world. Because you’re thinking about your business in terms of, you know, just yourself as opposed to the impact you can make. I think for most people, if they did have more time, and if they did have more money, they did have more mental bandwidth. There’s a lot of really cool, good things. And I’m looking your website right now that people you’ve worked with where they could do a lot of really amazing things. But they’re going to have to step out of the day to day to make those things happen. And this is this is kind of the tool, or the method that can pick up make that a reality.
Adam G. Force 19:55
That’s yeah, I love that. And I liked what you said. It’s like you have this moral obligation. If you can help people, you know, if somebody comes up to you, and they’re like, man, it’s because of you right, Josh and your help that our company was able to give, create more jobs and help more people, and you know, give us a better life. If you didn’t do what you do, then that person, you know, would be unaffected, right? And so it makes a big difference that has a trickle down effect as well. So I love that you kind of have that mindset around it. Yeah, so yeah, I mean, the idea of looking at it as an asset now, do you? Do you actually talk through it that way with people to look at your business as an asset that becomes sellable. So that, does that create a sort of frame of mind or something?
Josh Fonger 20:41
Yeah, that that’s one of the focuses for us. And again, we try to say high level, so that attracts kind of a pretty, pretty wide dead, but there is a certain demographic that that really wants to build a company to sell, ultimately, you know, maybe in 10 years, maybe five years, maybe one year, and this is a clear path to do that. Some of them like this guy you’re talking to yesterday, he’s a plumbing, business services business in California, he wants to open up another location in Vegas and Phoenix. So it’s about duplication, it’s not about selling it, they want to keep it a failing business, but they want to actually expand it. So that’s some people that want to expand. Other ones. They’re just, they are literally stuck in a day to day, they’d have, you know, one VA, and I talked to someone yesterday that that just had one VA, but he knows he can do so much more if he finally got things systemized. And so it’s about going from that, you know, quarter million dollar business a year to making the million dollar mark. And they just know, they have to make some shifts to do it. And so it attracts different people at different at different seasons. Yeah, we know, we’ve worked with some companies that are doing $500 million a year, even even larger. And for them. I mean, the owners have as much time and money as they need. It’s about just efficiency, impact scalability, and they realize if they can make a 3% efficiency improvement, it’s gonna be a ton of money. And so, yeah, well, I should do it. And so they have a different motivation, but usually work with smaller companies.
Adam G. Force 22:11
Yeah. Excuse me, I’m about to sneeze. Okay. Nevermind. Got it. Okay. Yeah, and I like the idea of creating the ability to create efficiency. And I guess, you know, when you’re thinking about a smaller company, I have you seen, so when you implement your process? What’s the timeline to really start feeling like, Okay, we got this thing systematized. And I can actually see myself kind of working from the outside of it more so than the inside.
Josh Fonger 22:56
Yeah, well, I don’t want to say it depends. But it really does. Some people, they jump right in. And then within a few months, their company is totally revolutionized that appraisal company, what our first clients that we’re still we’re still testing out the theory on these people. And within three months, he says, Josh, now what I do with my time, my employees don’t need me anymore. I’m not going to the office, what should I do? And so you know, it took up cycling, you know, he joined the band. And then eventually, he got bored, and then went back and then grew his business. Yeah, at first, it’s like, well, now I don’t need to be here. So that that can happen pretty quickly. Depending on the maturity of your business and the maturity of your of your team. The standard that we say is four months. So we say, if you dedicate four months to intentionally focusing in on your business with this methodology, it’s going to give you the chance to actually infuse strategy in all aspects of your business as to give your team a chance to try this out to test other procedures to measure them to actually build some consistency in using them and working in this way. And you’re going to have kind of a four month lifecycle to actually work in this way, so that it sticks. And then you just have to carry it carry it through. And that’s kind of our plan. We’ve tried doing it in a weekend workshop that didn’t work. We tried doing it in 60 days, that was too fast. We tried doing in six months, and we had to prove it for six months long, and people are like six months, that’s too long. I don’t want to commit that much time. So eventually, you know, we’ve got a standard, you know, 120 day transformational group coaching program, and that’s kind of our, our bread and butter is that, you know, four months of your stay committed that long. It’s going to transform the way you operate, and then you can just carry it through from there.
Adam G. Force 24:47
Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think curious, what are some of the biggest fears that the people you work with? Have to get over to actually do what they do?
Josh Fonger 25:02
Yeah, well, the biggest fear is that, that they know they’re not going to like it, I think that’s probably the, you know, there’s a lot of things you can do, you know, a lot of programs and products and services that that seem more sexy, more fun, you know, a new logo, new brand, you know, new advertising campaign website, there’s a lot of things that are just more visually appealing, and then more outward facing and people are going to notice them immediately, you might even get an immediate impact, where this is, this is the kind of the behind the scenes, boring stuff that people are like, I kind of want to say a little more fun with my time. And that’s, that’s probably the hardest thing is the fact that no, this is not always gonna be fun. They know it’s gonna be hard work. And they know that the results that they get, though it might be 10x, or 100x their business, it’s not going to do that in the first couple of months. Like the first few months, it’s going to be invest in infrastructure to be investing in your systems going to be investing in. And that kind of that’s hard thinking hard work. But the payoff is going to be massive. And so it’s getting them over a, I need to make sales next week, or I need to do this next month is to a, I need to build this for the next five years for my kids, my grandkids for the world. It’s it’s a it’s a totally different perspective. And so that’s, that’s probably the hardest thing is they know, it’s gonna take some time. And if they’re already, you know, living hand to mouth, and they’re, they’re in that phase, it’s hard for them to think differently about business.
Adam G. Force 26:41
Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like you work with both service and consulting businesses, but also ecommerce as well.
Josh Fonger 26:49
Yeah. Yeah. We’ve had e commerce businesses work with us. It’s, it’s really all over the map. I mean, we’ve had people who, you know, design websites, we’ve had podcasts to build, you know, a nuclear power plant repair companies. Yeah. Chiropractors, podiatrists, law firms. Gotcha.
Adam G. Force 27:08
Yeah. It’s interesting. And I’d be curious, is there a quick win in the process in the beginning, meaning like, for example, you mentioned some of the price considerations for the pricing model, is that a early on tweak that can kind of elevate some revenues while you work on all the other boring stuff?
Josh Fonger 27:29
Yeah, that’s definitely a way to have a little more cash in the door. But I think it’s another way is, if you and we do this with our owners is pretty tedious as we write down every single thing that they do for a couple days. And then if you can isolate a couple things that you’re doing every single day, and document that system and hand it off, that’s going to help you become a true believer of what this can do. And it’s also going to free up let’s just say, half hour a day or two hours a week of your time. And that’s when it really starts to become interesting, when you realize, Wow, I took this thing that I did every single day, every single week. And now I’ve handed it off. And now I immediately have time back. And I can reinvest that time. And so yeah, I try to get them a quick win in terms of time back. And ideally, any customer comes to us, we asked them what their biggest problem is. And we try to figure out a systematic, sustainable solution that’s going to prevent that problem from happening again. And the quicker we can make that happen, the better and the more the rest of the company can buy into it because they saw the results.
Adam G. Force 28:31
Yeah, I love that. Cool. Well, and where can people do a quick search to find you and maybe even get the book and learn more? Sure.
Josh Fonger 28:41
Yeah. So Sam Carpenter and I, we just split off the two sites, we just had too much going on on our Bulsara or both our sites and so WT s enterprises.com is where I do the coaching and consulting the training. The book is there soon we’re gonna have the book summary sort of like downloading it and actually getting getting the book and I podcast is there and then Sam Carpenter actually has his own site where he likes to blog and write about systems thinking nothing to nothing to buy there. Just just Sam the author and that’s at the website work the system.com
Adam G. Force 29:13
Cool, awesome. Hey, listen, I appreciate your time. This was a great conversation. I hope that people listening got a lot out of it. It’s important really important stuff.
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